Could Luke 20:38 support Universalism?

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Seballius
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Re: Could Luke 20:38 support Universalism?

Post by Seballius » Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:16 pm

Paidion

You did not address your belief about what happened with Samuel when Saul had him brought back.


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Re: Could Luke 20:38 support Universalism?

Post by Paidion » Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:17 pm

How does your belief of being/soul deal with the obvious dualism that is shown in scripture (the inner and outward man)?
I don't think the inner and outward man are two separate entities; rather they are two aspects of the same entity.

Do you the resurrected wicked die in the Lake of Fire?
My belief is that the Lake of Fire is God ("Our God is a consuming fire"). The Orthodox Church does not teach that Heaven and Hell are two different places, but represent two different ways in which people experience God, depending on whether they belong to Him or oppose Him. What does God consume? The evil in people. So my belief is that the purpose of Hell is for correction. The Scripture appears to teach that eventually all things will be reconciled to God:

John 12:32,32 … I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. He said this to show by what death he was to die.

When Jesus was lifted up on the cross, and died, did He draw all people to Himself? Over 2000 years has elapsed since that event. Has He drawn all people to Himself at any time in history? Then how will His word be fulfilled? Will it not be fulfilled when all have come under His feet? When all have submitted to His Lordship?

Colossians 1:19,20 For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

This passage above indicate that it is God’s purpose to reconcile all things to Himself. And doesn't all things include all people?

Ephesians 1:9,10 For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the secret of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

So God’s purpose for the eschaton (the fullness of time) is to unite with His entire creation. That is possible only if the entire creation comes under His rule. Is it not the final stage of the Kingdom of God that all creation be ruled by Him and give Him honour and worship?

Philippians 2:9-11 Therefore God has highly exalted him [Christ] and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
(Note: "should" does NOT mean "ought to" in this verse. Rather it is a subjunctive.)

I’ve heard it said, “Oh yes, every knee will bow all right --- when they are hit behind the knee with a two-by-four.” But that is not God’s way. His way is to win people to Himself, not force them. Their submission and confession of Jesus as Lord, to the glory of the Father, will come about by their own free will. The next sentence affirms that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can be forced to make that confession. It must be voluntary. Even an earthly king will have far greater glory if his enemies willingly come under his reign than he would have if they were merely forced to submit.

I Timothy 4:10
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all people, especially of those who believe.


This verse states that the living God is the Saviour of all people. In what sense? More than 99% of all people who have lived since Paul wrote this, have not known the Saviour. So it must be that they will all come to know Him in the future. Otherwise, how can He be the Saviour of all people? In what sense is He the Saviour especially of those who believe? Those who believe (have entrusted themselves to Him) will not have to undergo that severe mercy (the purifying fires of Gehenna) in order to come to the place of repentance and deliverance from sin.


Revelation 5:12-13 And I heard every created being in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, "To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might into the ages of ages!”

In his vision, John hears every created thing in the universe praising God! Even those “under the earth” (presumably in Gehenna, the Lake of Fire). Surely this is not a forced praise, but a genuine praise. God is love & has the power to stop the evil in the world today. Why doesn't he? Is it not that he doesn't force people? God created people with the ability to choose. He did not create a race of robots.

Philippians 3:20,21 But our commonwealth is in heaven, and from it we await a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power which enables him even to subject all things to himself.

What could be clearer? Jesus has the power to subject all to Himself. Some may argue that this will be forced. Perhaps Jesus will greatly influence them to submit, but they won’t be forced. Force is never God's way.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. "For God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "All things are put in subjection under him," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one.
Paidion

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Seballius
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Re: Could Luke 20:38 support Universalism?

Post by Seballius » Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:53 pm

Paidion

I did not realize that the Orthodox Church taught that. I have googled it and found your statement true. Wow, I am very surprised.

I have asked a lot, but I ask again because you did not reply earlier. “According to your view of soul/being, how do you explain what happened to Samuel when Saul called him back up?”

Thank you


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Re: Could Luke 20:38 support Universalism?

Post by Paidion » Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:06 pm

Hi Saballius, you wrote:Paidion

You did not address your belief about what happened with Samuel when Saul had him brought back.
(1 Samuel 28:3-8 ESV)
Now Samuel had died, and all Israel had lamented for him and buried him in Ramah, in his own city. And Saul had put the mediums and the spiritists out of the land. Then the Philistines gathered together, and came and encamped at Shunem. So Saul gathered all Israel together, and they encamped at Gilboa.

When Saul saw the army of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart trembled greatly. And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by the prophets. Then Saul said to his servants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.” And his servants said to him, “In fact, there is a woman who is a medium at En Dor.” So Saul disguised himself and put on other clothes, and he went, and two men with him; and they came to the woman by night. And he said, “Please conduct a seance for me, and bring up for me the one I shall name to you.”


Mediums and spiritists were not acceptable to God. Even Saul knew that, and had them removed from the land. Saul inquired of the LORD when he saw the Philistines, but the LORD did answer him, for Saul had fallen away from God. So Saul did the forbidden thing and asked a medium to conduct a seance, and to bring Samuel back from the dead. Mediums as you know, have the reputation for being able to contact the dead. They contact somebody, all right, but I think it is demons that they contact.

Here is a true story. My grandfather and his friend consulted a medium. The friend asked to speak to his dead mother. An apparition appeared, and a voice was heard that sounded exactly like his mother. The friend was astonished, and asked his "mother" questions about the afterlife and where she was. Then my grandfather asked to speak to his mother. The same thing happened. He saw an apparition that looked just like his mother, and heard a voice that sounded exactly like her. But the deception was made clear to my grandfather. For his mother had not yet died.
Paidion

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Re: Could Luke 20:38 support Universalism?

Post by john6809 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:46 pm

It’s amazing how differently people can understand the same scriptures.

It is true, Jesus was addressing the resurrection in this passage. But in verse 38, Jesus clearly states that God is NOT the God of the dead. And yet, he attributes the statement, “I am the God of your Father - the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob”, as written in Exodus 3:6, to God.

I don’t know if Moses’ father was still alive but Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were dead. If these were entirely dead in every sense, how could God still be their God since He is not the God of the dead? My understanding is that they were still alive in some sense.

In 2 Corinthians 5:4, it looks to me as though we are currently clothed in a tent that is mortal and we groan because we are, in measure, unclothed and desire further clothing in the form of an immortal body.

This indicates, at least to me, that we are spiritual beings that are not designed to exist as disembodied souls. My understanding has always been that the spirit of a man goes to be with the Lord at physical death where we wait to be reunited with our resurrected bodies.




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Re: Could Luke 20:38 support Universalism?

Post by Paidion » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:04 pm

In 2 Corinthians 5:4, it looks to me as though we are currently clothed in a tent that is mortal and we groan because we are, in measure, unclothed and desire further clothing in the form of an immortal body.
Being "clothed" or "unclothed" is a figure of speech that Paul employed. We don't want to remain "unclothed" after death, that is to have no body and be gone for good. We would rather be "clothed" with the resurrection body.
Paidion

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Re: Could Luke 20:38 support Universalism?

Post by Seballius » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:09 pm

Paidion

How long have you held this belief about the soul/being and what study or studies brought you to this conclusion?

Thank you


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Could Luke 20:38 support Universalism?

Post by Seballius » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:35 pm

By the way - interesting story about your grandfather. One would think that the evil spirit would know that his mother was still alive; especially since it could look like her and imitate her voice.


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Last edited by Seballius on Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Could Luke 20:38 support Universalism?

Post by john6809 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:37 pm

I realize it’s a figure of speech. Like I said, interesting how differently people can understand the same passage.

Do you have any suggestions about my understanding of the passage in Luke 20?


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Re: Could Luke 20:38 support Universalism?

Post by john6809 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:07 pm

Also, if Paul knew that we have a heavenly habitation in store for the day when this current building is destroyed and is also desirous of being further clothed than he currently is, doesn’t that indicate that our current groaning is for an improved body, not just an expression of desire to not be gone for good?


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