Could Luke 20:38 support Universalism?

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Seballius
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Could Luke 20:38 support Universalism?

Post by Seballius » Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:48 pm

In the NASB, Luke 20:38 says

“Now He is not the God of the dead but the living; for all live to Him.”

This discussion is between Jesus and the Sadducees, when they ask him the question about a woman being married to seven (7) men.

In this passage, Jesus is correcting their belief that there is no resurrection.

And he says “all” live to Him (God). Obviously, the living that Jesus is referring to is the resurrection because he cites three (3) people (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) who have already died. Now is this “all” just the saints (similar to what Calvinist say about other “all” passages) or is it to “all” humanity?

I would like to hear people’s thoughts on this.


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Re: Could Luke 20:38 support Universalism?

Post by Paidion » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:43 pm

Some people say that it indicates that "all people are alive again immediately after death" whether they go to heaven or hell.

My personal view is that it indicates that all people will be alive when they are raised from the dead. After all, Jesus is dealing with the Sadducees' false belief that there is no resurrection.
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Re: Could Luke 20:38 support Universalism?

Post by Seballius » Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:36 pm

Paidion

So you affirm soul sleep? Or you do not think that people are awake or cognizant without their resurrected bodies?


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Re: Could Luke 20:38 support Universalism?

Post by Paidion » Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:29 pm

Hi Seballius, you wrote:Paidion
So you affirm soul sleep? Or you do not think that people are awake or cognizant without their resurrected bodies?
No, I don't believe in "soul sleep." In fact, I don't believe in souls (at least not in the Greek philosophical sense of some entity that can exist apart from one's body).
In the Old Testament the word translated as "soul" meant "being." God breathed into man the breath of life and man became a "living soul." He didn't receive a soul;he became a "living soul," that is, a living being. And so we also read in Genesis in the King James of the "soul of beasts" that is, the "being" of beasts.
In the New Testament, the word translated as "soul" means "self" or sometimes "life."

Consider this parable that our Lord told, and ask yourself what He meant by the word translated as "soul":

Then He spoke a parable to them, saying: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded plentifully. “And he thought within himself, saying, ‘What shall I do, since I have no room to store my crops?’ So he said, ‘I will do this: I will pull down my barns and build greater, and there I will store all my crops and my goods. ‘And I will say to my soul, “Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years; take your ease; eat, drink, and be merry.”’ But God said to him, ‘Fool! This night your soul will be required of you; then whose will those things be which you have provided?’ So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God. (Luke 12:16-21)

How could the rich man talk to his soul, if "soul" means that immaterial part of him about which Plato and other Greek philosophers taught? Wasn't the rich man in the parable talking to himself? Didn't God say to him that his life would be required of him that night?

So no, I don't believe either in "soul sleep" or "souls going to heaven at death." I believe that when I die, I'm dead, and will remain dead until the Lord raises me from death on the last day. I won't exist after death until that happens. The resurrection is not merely a resurrection of the body, but of the whole person! Who needs a resurrection of the body, if we go sailing off to heaven at death? Why not live happily ever after as disembodied spirits or "souls"?

But it seems that the apostle Paul also believed that unless there is a resurrection, we might as well eat, drink, and be merry here on earth, for there would be nothing more.

In the great Resurrection Chapter (1Cor 15) he wrote in verse 32

...If the dead are not raised, Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.
Paidion

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Re: Could Luke 20:38 support Universalism?

Post by Seballius » Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:36 pm

I have often contemplated the same belief (the one that you wrote about). However, what do you say about the events in the Bible where people are speaking to departed/dead people? E.g. - Samuel, Moses & Elijah, the parable of the rich man & Abraham

Thanks for your comments. I enjoy the interaction.


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Re: Could Luke 20:38 support Universalism?

Post by Homer » Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:53 pm

Hi Seballius,

In your posted question you quoted:
“Now He is not the God of the dead but the living; for all live to Him.”
"All live to Him" is in the present indicative active tense which tells us the action (living) was occurring as Jesus spoke. As Jesus was speaking Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were alive. I can see no support for universalism in His words but it would appear to rebut both annihilation and Paidion's position.


Blessings, Homer

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The Afterlife

Post by Paidion » Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:52 pm

Hi, Seballius, you wrote: I have often contemplated the same belief (the one that you wrote about). However, what do you say about the events in the Bible where people are speaking to departed/dead people? E.g. - Samuel, Moses & Elijah, the parable of the rich man & Abraham
As recorded in Matthew 16:9, Jesus indicated to the disciples that they had just seen a vision. He told them not to tell anyone the vision.
First they saw Jesus transfigured, that is, He appeared different from His natural humanity. In the vision they saw Moses and Elijah talking to Him. Then Jesus touched them, and the vision disappeared, and they saw Jesus only in His normal human form.

As for the statement that Homer brought up, one need only read it in context to understand that it is ALL ABOUT THE RESURRECTION. Jesus introduced His statement with the words "As for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read..." The fact that "He is the God of the living" is in the present tense in no way proves that souls go to heaven at death. God is the God of the living, and so that is why, on the last day, Jesus is going to raise believers from death." The only way to try to understand Jesus' words as souls going to heaven at death, is to presume that going to heaven IS the resurrection. But that resurrection does not take place at death, for Jesus said, "For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:40)
He didn't say, "I will raise him up when he dies."

MARK 12:
18 And Sadducees came to him, who say that there is no resurrection. And they asked him a question, saying,
19 "Teacher, Moses wrote for us that if a man’s brother dies and leaves a wife, but leaves no child, the man must take the widow and raise up offspring for his brother.
20 There were seven brothers; the first took a wife, and when he died left no offspring.
21 And the second took her, and died, leaving no offspring. And the third likewise.
22 And the seven left no offspring. Last of all the woman also died.
23 In the resurrection, when they rise again, whose wife will she be? For the seven had her as wife."
24 Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God?
25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
26 And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
27 He is not God of the dead, but of the living. You are quite wrong."
Paidion

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Re: Could Luke 20:38 support Universalism?

Post by Paidion » Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:57 pm

As for the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, it was a common view among the Jews that all people went to Hades immediately after death. The Jewish historian Josephus, wrote an article on Hades, which He described much the same way as Jesus described it in His parable—only in much greater detail. Jesus used this common Jewish belief as a basis for His parable given to the Jews to show that even if it were possible for someone come back from the dead and warn them, they still wouldn't believe.
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Re: Could Luke 20:38 support Universalism?

Post by Seballius » Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:43 pm

Hello Homer

“Alive to Him” would suggest active present life. However, is the second death really life?

Death and Hades will be thrown into the Lake of Fire (Rev 20:14) and we know there will be no more“death” (Rev 21:4). Thus, the Lake of Fire is the death of death.

To me, it seems that those thrown in the Lake of Fire will either be one (1) of two (2) things.

1. They will be like “death” (Rev 20:14) in the second death/Lake of Fire (in this case they are not a part of the “all” - only the saints are in the “all” - notice that Jesus only refers to OT believers in this Luke 20 passage).

2. Or the second death kills/puts death to all that “death”/sin within the wicked and Jesus restores the “captivity of Sodom” (Eze 16:53) and He makes “all” things new (Rev 21:5).

Regarding the other - soul is being - I have heard those who hold that position say - that since the spirit is separated from the body, it (the spirit) is still alive but asleep or inactive without the resurrected body.


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Could Luke 20:38 support Universalism?

Post by Seballius » Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:09 pm

Hello Paidion

You said

“As for the statement that Homer brought up, one need only read it in context to understand that it is ALL ABOUT THE RESURRECTION. Jesus introduced His statement with the words "As for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read..." The fact that "He is the God of the living" is in the present tense in no way proves that souls go to heaven at death. God is the God of the living, and so that is why, on the last day, Jesus is going to raise believers from death." The only way to try to understand Jesus' words as souls going to heaven at death, is to presume that going to heaven IS the resurrection. But that resurrection does not take place at death, for Jesus said, "For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:40)
He didn't say, "I will raise him up when he dies”

Your points seem good and valid.

How does your belief of being/soul deal with the obvious dualism that is shown in scripture (the inner and outward man)?

Do you believe the resurrected wicked die in the Lake of Fire?





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Last edited by Seballius on Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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