The Narrow Path Ministries

The fiery Reformed preacher Paul Washer is pulling though a massive heart attack it seems, thanks to an emergency operation and hugely complicated medical care developed over a long period of time to what it is today.

I`m not hitting on Paul Washer per se, but want to bring up the following point for discussion. He believes in ECT and is not afraid to frighten his hearers Jonathan Edwards style. But it got me to thinking: his theology would have many, even most of those who helped him two weeks ago suffering for all eternity in hell for their rejection of Christ. The very people who helped repair God`s elect will be the ones suffering unspeakble agony without end. I find this highly unsatisfactory. It doesn`t have the flavour of justice.

Any thoughts, eg an angle I am failing to consider, would be welcome. Thanks

But it got me to thinking: his theology would have many, even most of those who helped him two weeks ago suffering for all eternity in hell for their rejection of Christ. The very people who helped repair God`s elect will be the ones suffering unspeakble agony without end. I find this highly unsatisfactory. It doesn`t have the flavour of justice.

Any thoughts, eg an angle I am failing to consider, would be welcome. Thanks
Ian

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Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:26 am
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I agree that ECT is not just and God is just. So we have had very long threads on this topic over the years but for me it boils down to the fact that in this life our exposure to Jesus is vastly different for everyone depending on circumstances. For most of my life i thought Jesus was to the Christians like Moses was to the Jews until someone preached the gospel to me for the first time in my life. What if that never happened? So i think the greek words used for "judgement" which are "krisis" or "krinos" have a half a dozen meanings which mostly allow for a possibility for reconciliation after physical death and that's what i think can happen in the Lake of Fire.

I agree Steve.

And I think to not at least wish for the state of affairs you describe would show something to be amiss in the Christian.

To his credit, Mr Washer was apparently doing a lot of preaching to hospital staff, according to some updates I was receiving regarding his condition.

I don't agree with some of his theology (he's reformed I believe) but he is a strong preacher that is not afraid to rub people the wrong way.

I posted on FB the other day about Billy Sunday who was accused of preaching too hard- he said that people accused him of "rubbing the fur the wrong way" and he said "I don't- let them turn around."

Hi TK

Like I said I`m not hitting on PW. I`ve listened to him and others like him (Tim Conway for example) for hours. But this doctrine...

I'm right there with you on that!

Since we are revisiting this topic, active at the same time, there is an ongoing topic regarding compatibilism and free will. How could it be possible for universalism to be true without either determinism or compatibilism being true?

Matt defined compatibilism on the other thread as:

By definition, compatibilism is the belief that determinism and free will are both true realities.

If universalism is true then it would seem that at a minimum compatibilism would necessarily be true as Matt defined it.

That's a good question Homer.

As I understand the UR view, all in hell will eventually repent of their own free will even if it takes 10 gazillion years.

If in 10 gazillion years there are still persons in hell who have not yet repented, UR could still be true. After all, time is not an issue. There is always another 10 gazillion years if that is what it takes.

Homer wrote:Since we are revisiting this topic, active at the same time, there is an ongoing topic regarding compatibilism and free will. How could it be possible for universalism to be true without either determinism or compatibilism being true?

Matt defined compatibilism on the other thread as:

By definition, compatibilism is the belief that determinism and free will are both true realities.

If universalism is true then it would seem that at a minimum compatibilism would necessarily be true as Matt defined it.

I have noticed 2 forms of universalism

One is 'hopeful' and the other is 'certain'

Hopeful universalism makes some sense to me, given the reality of libertarian free will.

Certain or dogmatic universalism can only be true, it seems to me, if some form of divine determinism / compatibilism is true. I agree with your point Homer.

Dogmatic universalism might be possible without the violation of the concept of free will, if we could assume all men are ultimately rational, can be reasoned with, and (given sufficient time and opportunity) can be disabused of all the illusions that previously fed their ignorance, deception, rebellion and hatred of God. We don't find all men so rational in this short lifetime—perhaps it is not long enough.