Why have children

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TheEditor
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Re: Why have children

Post by TheEditor » Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:18 pm

Wow, just had a really glitchy thing happpen with the site!

Anyway, Hi Paidion,

I am aware of the Knoch/Russell correspondence. It may interest you to know that the WT Society entered an agreement with Concordant Publishing Concern to print and distribute their Concordant Literal Translation, around the end of the 1910s/early 1920s. Around 1925, Rutherford put the brakes on that, summarily. There were a bunch of excuses made, but really what it boiled down to was that several key members of the WT Society adopted Knoch's view and left the WT. Rutherford, not one to be slighted, paid it back in spades. I agree, if ever there was a megalomaniac that was full of himself, it was Judge Rutherford. I went through my period of reading the old literature, and the history surrounding WT antecedents, and so I am familiar with the Moyle controversy. He wasn't the first, nor was he the last.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

steve7150
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Re: Why have children

Post by steve7150 » Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:42 am

When Charles T. Russell was on the go, the Bible Students Association seems to have been a fairly good organization. Did you know that universalist Adolph E. Knoch used to have some heavy discussions with Russell on the topic of the ultimate reconciliation of all to God? Russell, who believed in the annihilation of the lost, disagreed with Knoch, of course.

In my opinion it was Judge Rutherford who really put the organization off track.







Yes you are right. The Bible Students (founded by Russell) believe the milleneum period is the opportunity after physical death and then the resurrection of everyone , this milleneum is the opportunity where mankind gets to choose or not choose following Christ without being blinded by Satan.
Actually Russell and Knoch are not far apart.

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Paidion
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Re: Why have children

Post by Paidion » Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:20 pm

Hi Brenden, you wrote:Wow, just had a really glitchy thing happpen with the site!
Was the glitch thing the message "p. 288 in not part of this book preview"?
However, that doesn't matter. You can scroll down further and get the letter from Olin Noyle to Judge Rutherford.
It's found on p. 291.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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TheEditor
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Re: Why have children

Post by TheEditor » Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:07 pm

Hi Paidion,

No, :lol: it was THIS site. I had tried to reply to you but the screen froze and a "pause" button icon appeared in the middle of the screen. Weirdest thing. I've read the Moyle letter in the past. The WT Organization in it's history is about as textbook a case of mass-movement dynamics ala Eric Hoffer's The True Believer as you can possibly get, with the "fanatic" phase embodied in the teachings and policies of Rutherford.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

Singalphile
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Re: Why have children

Post by Singalphile » Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:36 pm

Chip wrote:I am new to the site. I have read the forum for many years and finally decided to join in. My question is if Christians are really committed to the doctrine of hell why would they ever take the chance of having children?
God wanted man to reproduce and fill the earth/land (not just one garden apparently). Children are a blessing and a gift from the Lord, per Psalm 127. Jesus liked children and God so loved the world. We're all familiar with those.
Chip wrote:Personally I don't believe in hell. It just does not make since. Why no tell Adam and Eve or inn the blessings and curses God says not one word to Isreal.
Even if you don't believe in some sort of "hell", however you define that, everyone, Christians and non-Christians, know that their children will suffer and die.

Your questions are very reasonable though, and it would be interesting to see them taken seriously by each of the different views. I would have to think about it some more.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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Homer
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Re: Why have children

Post by Homer » Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:55 am

Regarding why Christians, if they believe in hell, aren't more concerned about those who are lost, I do not think it possible to be as concerned as logic would indicate we should be. We have a close relative who, if not an atheist, is at least an agnostic. We have tried to witness to him but it only makes him angry. I pray almost daily that God will change him somehow. But I do not agonize over the fate that awaits him.

Years ago as I was driving down the street we live on, just ahead of me I watched as a boy about 12 years old on a bicycle veered into the path of a speeding car that was passing him. The boy was hit from behind. He flew over the car, landed on the trunk, then the road. Thankfully he survived his injuries, and needless to say I was very disturbed by the accident. Recently in the news we hear of earthquakes in Japan and Ecuador, with thousands injured and killed. Why am I not disturbed thousands of times more than I was seeing the boy hit on his bicycle? I think only God can apprehend the staggering loss of life and suffering. It is sort of an abstract or subjective thing to us, if those are the correct words, when it is not right in front of us. So it is with the thought of hell for the great many headed there. We are not able to fully bear the thought, or even comprehend it, and survive mentally. So we go about supporting missionaries and our churches as we should and our life goes on.

Regarding the fate the lost, Jesus had plenty to say about the matter, assured us it will be so, and indicated that the great many will not find the narrow path.

Chip
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Re: Why have children

Post by Chip » Sat Apr 23, 2016 10:48 am

It must be true of heaven to we just can't comprehend it. Because most Christians I know don't spend a lot of time telling of that either like you you said they just go about their lives.
I think the physical church is the evangelical tool of today, ask them to come to church the pastor will get them.
I was a missionary for 5 years most that I know live in poverty because we are buying bigger houses and nicer cars. Now I am speaking for the missionary group ywam. If hell is true then we suck as people let alone Christians.

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jriccitelli
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Re: Why have children

Post by jriccitelli » Sat Apr 30, 2016 7:18 pm

My question is if Christians are really committed to the doctrine of hell why would they ever take the chance of having children? (Chip)
Good question! Or, good point.

I would think Christian parents believe they 'could' raise Godly children. Unbelievers, or those who don't care about Hell, don't care, and thus have kids either way.

As a Conditionalist, I hold that God is ultimately fair / God does not punish a human just for being born - or for simply for making a conscious informed choice not to 'want' to live with God and others forever in a Holy eternal existence. I believe that God does punish those who 'deserve' punishment, and He does so with a 'fair' punishment, because Justice 'must' be served. And to not do anything would be unjust. Terrible crimes receive more punishment than less severe crimes, just like in the Law. God is able to make an accurate judgement of guilt and crimes. We can see that God does just that in the Old Testament. That said, like in the OT, God can choose to waive or forgive alot of minor offenses, and I believe: for the majority of people and sin, He will forgive, but that does not give them eternal life.

But God does point out that there is alot of sins that are 'especially offensive' and thus deserve a more severe punishment, and He will do so. The place of punishment is Hell, and combined with the ultimate punishment of being thrown into the Lake of Fire, this final punishment is one that ends with the complete annihilation of the spirit (I personally believe God 'may' give everyone a chance to repent post-mortem, but not everyone repents, or wants to, but don't count on it. And I might add that, just because God grants forgiveness and avoid severe punishment, that does not mean they have 'eternal' life. Men nor their spirits are immortal, they might escape punishment but not the 'death' of the soul in hell).

Why do Christians not preach about hell as much? Well I spend alot of time just debating with people over whether or not there is a God, and or sin - without getting to the subject of hell. If I do need to go there, or rather than use hell as an argument, I generally stick to the point that there is a Judgment where everyone will be held accountable for what they have done. That conversation, or debate, usually goes a lot easier than going straight to the doctrine of Hell.
Last edited by jriccitelli on Sun May 01, 2016 10:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

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TK
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Re: Why have children

Post by TK » Sun May 01, 2016 6:43 am

Some of you may remember Mort_Coyle from the old forum. He wrote something that always stuck with me that pertains to this issue:

"Besides, most Christians nowadays don't believe in the Hell of eternal conscious torment. Not really. This is clearly evidenced by the way they live and the priorities they set in their lives. If one is truly convinced that, for most people, a short span on earth is followed by an eternity of misery, then surely one would spend every waking hour, every penny and every ounce of energy trying to save people from it. I think most Christians who claim to believe in the traditional concept of Hell suffer from a form of cognitive dissonance which forces them to tune out and turn away from any lingering thoughts on the fate of most of their fellow humans; the people they rub shoulders with and work with and live with. Those who are unable to compartmentalize the doctrine of Hell become wild-eyed street preachers or suffer nervous breakdowns."

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jriccitelli
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Re: Why have children

Post by jriccitelli » Sun May 01, 2016 9:19 am

I have had to ask myself: does Conditionalism (that leads to annihilation) soften the urgency to proclaim the warning of hell?
I do believe that it allows a Conditionalist to focus on the truth of a Judgment / and the truth of eternal life / and the truth of punishment / and the truth of life forever with God / and the truth of Holiness with God / and the truth of reason and justice with God, etc. And I suppose this is a better approach than the unreasonable approach of tradition (I don't think it was rational to use eternal torture as the reason to repent and convert in the first place, so it is hard for me to imagine or believe that thinking anyways).

I believe the truth/falsehood of the traditionalist view may be evident also by the fact that 'traditionalists dont seem to force the issue' as much anymore. Possibly because of having to rationalize the sense of it in an world that does not 'have to' accept it without question or reason. The answer is that although they may think they believe it, they cannot defend it rationally and fairly, at least not since we have more freedom of speech in the christian world.

And I had to add to my previous post above, my view of second chances is not necessarily a Conditionalist view, but my own opinion:
(I personally believe God 'may' give everyone a chance to repent post-mortem, but not everyone repents, or wants to, but don't count on it. And I might add that, just because God grants forgiveness and avoid severe punishment, that does not mean they have 'eternal' life. Men nor their spirits are immortal, they might escape punishment but not the 'death' of the soul in hell).

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