Help with finding a source

marty
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Help with finding a source

Post by marty » Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:39 pm

Can anyone point me to a searchable copy of the Gemara Babylonicum? I'm trying to find this document as a source for the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazurus being used long before Christ used it. Many scholars reference this but I can't find it any where on line. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

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Suzana
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Re: Help with finding a source

Post by Suzana » Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:01 am

I remembered there was some mention of this a looong time ago, it would be interesting to know if it has ever been found:
by _Steve on Thu Jul 07, 2005 3:12 pm

....Second, Thomas Thayer, in an article I read some time ago ( and to which the original post in this thread provided a link) wrote: "Dr. Whitby affirms, 'we find this very parable in the Gemara Babylonicum.'." I have had no success in getting my hands upon this document, but if this is true, it means that Jesus was referencing a non-canonical story, familiar to those of His day, without committing Himself to its truthfulness. In other words, if this was a familiar story to the Jews, but they knew it to be a make-believe story, Jesus might have used it to illustrate, in parabolic fashion, some spiritual principle. I am still looking for the text of the Gemara Babylonicum. to see whether this story really resembles one found there.

....I encourage those who are interested in this subject to do their own research and to reach their own conclusions. Thayer was himself a Christian Universalist, and his article at http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/tbhell.html is a valuable piece of propaganda in the defense of that view.
http://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... icum#p3927
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kaufmannphillips
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Re: Help with finding a source

Post by kaufmannphillips » Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:17 am

I suppose this might be referring to the Talmud Bavli. http://people.ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Talm ... emara.html

English renderings:

online - http://halakhah.com/

and on CD-ROM - http://www.christianbook.com/babylonian ... /pd/565270
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marty
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Re: Help with finding a source

Post by marty » Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:37 am

That source doesn't seem to be searchable though. I'll keep looking, it has to be available somewhere.

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kaufmannphillips
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Re: Help with finding a source

Post by kaufmannphillips » Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:41 am

The PDFs at halakhah.com are searchable, as are the PDFs in the Neusner CD-ROM.

marty
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Re: Help with finding a source

Post by marty » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:15 pm

Would you have any idea which of all the PDFs In would need?

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kaufmannphillips
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Re: Help with finding a source

Post by kaufmannphillips » Tue May 01, 2012 12:00 am

Your reference appears to have been to the gemara (part of the talmud that is commentary on mishnaic text). So if you are using the PDFs from halakhah.com, you might first search the PDF for "gemara" to see if it includes that sort of commentary. Not all of the PDFs at that website have gemara.

Although the various tractates in the talmud have topical themes, sometimes discussions may range off-topic. So the material you are looking for might be in any tractate with gemara.

Also, there are some minor tractates that I have not found either at the halakhah website or in the Neusner edition; I have not found any PDFs for those in English.

marty
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Re: Help with finding a source

Post by marty » Tue May 01, 2012 2:58 pm

Looks like i'm in for a long search then LOL. I really do want to find this source for that Lazarus parable though so I better get started.

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mattrose
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Re: Help with finding a source

Post by mattrose » Tue May 01, 2012 3:11 pm

So you are looking for the actual documentation of the pre-Jesus stories in order to establish beyond doubt that Jesus was utilizing a stock story?

I, myself, did a paper on the parable. Without knowing ancient languages, I was unable to read the stories for myself in the original languages. Richard Bauckham did tell the stories in his own words. I recorded them in my paper (with the relevant section below). I'm guessing you've already heard the stories and are just searching for further confirmation (being a good researcher).

...............
That the story is a parable is further proven by the discovery of ancient parallels to Jesus’ story. Recent scholarship now recognizes that Jesus was not making this story up out of thin air. He was, instead, adapting and putting an interesting twist on a well-established literary motif.

The earliest version of the story seems to have originated in ancient Egypt. In this story, a man named Si-Osiris is reincarnated from the realm of the dead so as to deal with an Ethiopian magician who was upstaging his Egyptian counterparts. Si-Osiris is miraclously born to a childless couple and, before he is old enough to accomplish his purpose, he and his father share an interesting dialogue after observing the funerals of a rich man and a pauper. When the father suggests his hope to have a life and death like the rich man, Si-Osiris corrects him by taking him on a tour of the realm of the dead. There it is learned that the pauper has been elevated to a high position and the rich man is left on the outside looking in.

This story seems to have migrated and morphed into a variety of Jewish stories, the most famous of which involves the deaths of a rich tax collector named Bar-Ma’Jan and poor Torah scholar. The rich man is buried in style, the poor scholar left unmourned. A friend of this scholar is saddened by the contrast, but it is subsequently revealed to him in a dream that Bar-Ma’Jan is in torment while the pious friend is in bliss.

While the comparisons between these stories and our parable go a long way to proving that Jesus was not referring to historical figures, the contrasts help us to discover the specific point being made by Jesus’ adaptations and twists on the popular motif.

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kaufmannphillips
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Re: Help with finding a source

Post by kaufmannphillips » Tue May 01, 2012 9:14 pm

Thank you, Matt! I found where this was discussed on this forum a couple years ago, and you contributed there as well:
http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.ph ... &sk=t&sd=a

I think it was Steve Donnelly who posted on that thread with "a segment of text lifted from Neusner's translation of the Jerusalem Talmud." I haven't translated the whole passage from the original, but I did check out a couple of points, and I've modified the Neusner rendering a bit:
Talmud Yerushalmi, Tractate Chagigah 2.2 (parallel @ Talmud Yerushalmi, Tractate Sanhedrin 6.6)

There were two holy men in Ashqelon, who would eat together, drink together, and study Torah together. One of them died, and he was not properly mourned. But when Bar Maayan, the village tax collector, died, the whole town took time off to mourn him.

The surviving holy man began to weep saying, “Woe, for the enemies of Israel will have no merit.” [The deceased holy man] appeared to him in a dream, and said to him, “Do not despise the sons of your Lord. did one sin and departed in it, and [Bar Maayan] did one good deed and departed in it.” {thus, the way in which each departed was a marker of their one aberration in life}

Now what was the culpable act that the [deceased] holy man had done? Heaven forfend! He committed no culpable act in his entire life. But one time he put on the phylactery of the head before that of the hand [which was an error].

Now what was the meritorious deed that Bar Maayan, the village tax collector, had done? Heaven forfend! He never did a meritorious deed in his life. But one time he made a banquet for the councillors of his town, but they did not come. He said, “Let the poor come and eat the food, so that it not go to waste.” (There are those who say that he was traveling along the road with a loaf of bread under his arm, and it fell. A poor man went and took it, and the tax collector said nothing to him so as not to embarrass him.)

After a few days the holy man saw [the deceased holy man] walking among gardens, orchards, and fountains of water. He saw Bar Maayan the village tax collector with his tongue hanging out, by a river. He wanted to reach the river but could not reach it.


On the other thread, linked above, StevenD mentions a possible connection between this passage and the time of Alexander Jannaeus (~ one century before Jesus). Judith Abrams also links the story to a person in the first century BCE {http://books.google.com/books?id=-Sko61 ... &q&f=false}. But I would not yet consider that sort of date to be airtight (and Steve Donnelly might feel similarly).


I will also add here a selection from Ruth Rabbah 3.3 (trans. Rabinowitz, eds. mine):

Consider two wicked men who associated with each other in this world. One of them repented of his evil deeds before his death, while the other did not - with the result that [in the hereafter] the [repentant one] stands in the company of the righteous, while [the unrepentant one] stands in the company of the wicked.

And seeing [the repentant one], [the man who had not repented] says, "‘Woe is Me - is there favor shown here, then? We both committed robberies, [and] we both committed murders together - yet he stands in the company of the righteous, and I [stand] in the company of the wicked!"

And [the angels] reply to him and say, "You fool! You were despicable after your death and you lay for three days, and didn't they drag you to your grave with ropes? The maggot is spread under you, and the worms cover you. And your associate understood and repented of his evil ways, and you - you also had the opportunity of repenting, and you did not take it.’"

[The man who had not repented] thereupon says to them, "Permit me to go and repent!" And [the angels] answer him and say, "You fool! Do you know that this world is like the Sabbath, and the world you came from is like the eve of the Sabbath? If a man does not prepare his meal on the eve of the Sabbath, what will he eat on the Sabbath? And do you not know also that [this] world is like the sea, and the world you came from is like the dry land? If a man does not prepare his food on the dry land, what will he eat at sea? And do you not know, also, that this world is like the wilderness, and the world you came from is like cultivated land? If a man does not prepare his food on cultivated land, what will he eat in the wilderness?"

What does [the man who had not repented] do? He folds his hands and eats his flesh - as it is said, the fool folds his hands together, and eats his own flesh - and he says, ‘"Permit me to look upon my associate in his glory."’ And [the angels] answer him, "You fool! We have been commanded by the Almighty that the wicked shall not stand by the side of the righteous, nor the righteous by the side of the wicked; neither impure with pure nor pure with impure.’" (To what does this commandment refer? To this gate, as it is said, this is the gate of the Lord; the righteous shall enter into it.)


With rabbinic literature, very often there are questions about dating the source material. These stories may or may not be representative of stories that were current at the time of Jesus.

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