Barclay was convinced (UR)

[RICHinCHRIST]

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/barclay1.html

Although I'm not yet fully convinced, I must say this is a wonderfully succinct and honorable description of the limitless love of God.

[Homer]

But why does He wait until they die? Could He not save them now just as well? And on what basis are they saved post-mortem? No one can say.

[RICHinCHRIST]

But why does He wait until they die? Could He not save them now just as well?

If God forcefully saved all people in this lifetime, it would seem to defeat one of His main purposes: 'testing humanity'. God set up the Garden of Eden for the test. Humanity failed. He is now seeing how the individual members of Adam will respond to their respective tests.

However, God has the right to interfere with certain individual's tests. For instance, the apostle Paul. I don't care what anyone says about it, but Paul didn't really have a choice in whether he was going to be a servant of Christ or not. God told Ananias (before He stopped Paul on the road), "I'm gonna show this guy just how much he's gonna suffer for Me". It seems that God has the right to sovereignly interfere despite one's free-will. Although I think it's possible (but very unlikely) that Paul could have given up at some point (due to tribulation, or the cares of this life), his initial conversion was unalterable, in my opinion. How could he still reject Christ at that moment when he met the risen Lord? To give every human being the damascus road experience, although it would be nice, would also defeat the purpose of God's testing of the majority.

And on what basis are they saved post-mortem? No one can say.

If I was a universalist, I'd say: 'by grace'. They would be saved by grace, just like we are saved by grace. Exactly how God reconciles people in the next life does remain a mystery though.

[steve7150]

Homer wrote:
And on what basis are they saved post-mortem? No one can say.

If I was a universalist, I'd say: 'by grace'. They would be saved by grace, just like we are saved by grace. Exactly how God reconciles people in the next life does remain a mystery though.




Or because he is love, or because it is his stated will and in Eph 1, it affirms God's will is done. Maybe all three, grace & love & his will.

[RICHinCHRIST]

I said:

God told Ananias (before He stopped Paul on the road), "I'm gonna show this guy just how much he's gonna suffer for Me".

This isn't very essential to the discussion at hand... but Acts 9 actually says God called Ananias after Paul was converted. I was working from memory when I said that. Oops.. I guess we have to even be Bereans against ourselves too!

[RICHinCHRIST]

Or because he is love, or because it is his stated will and in Eph 1, it affirms God's will is done. Maybe all three, grace & love & his will.

I have thought about this lately. I've been realizing that I have been compartmentalizing the attributes of God when I consider Hell. I think to myself, "Well, God is love, yes. BUT! He is also a just consuming fire... He must annihilate or torture (at least temporally) in some sense (perhaps even forever, if it is necessary)." However, I think the UR position sees that God is not only loving sometimes and then just sometimes. Everything he does is motivated out of love. Not only love, but just, holy love. So perhaps Hell is even an expression of His love in some way.

I also came across this passage recently and have had difficulty explaining it since knowing the UR view.


The phrase 'all things' is used a number of times in these verses (16, 17 twice, 18, and 20). The all things are defined as: "everything in heaven and earth, visible or invisible". That would include all human beings and angels. Verse 20 says Christ has reconciled all these "things" to Himself by His blood on the cross.

Perhaps this has been discussed many times before on the forum.. but this was quite a revelation to me.. I never noticed the UR view in this passage previously. To be honest, Ephesians 1, 2 Cor. 5:19, and even Romans 5 and 1 Cor. 15 seemed like they might teach UR, but they weren't enough to sway me due to the ambiguity. But this passage seems very obvious to teach UR. This very well might be the passage that influences me in that direction.

[TK]

"having made peace through the blood of His cross."

Who is making this peace-- Jesus or the things on earth and in heaven?

The response, I suppose to the "all things" argument would be that Jesus has done his part to reconcile all things, now the "all things" must do their part. This is where the mystery lies (for me) in the UR idea-- if what Jesus did on the cross automatically reconciled all things, then why the need for a hell at all for those who do not "accept Christ" during their lifetime? They are reconciled, after all. So it would seem that "accepting Christ" in some how effectuates the reconciliation. But most people, while alive dont have to be tortured to accept Christ, so why is it necessary to torture them after they die? Why not simply have them listen to Steve G's teachings? (I am not suggesting that would be torture! )

TK

[Homer]

Rich,

Considering the passage you cited:

Colossians 1:16-20
16. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased [the Father that] in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20. and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. (NKJV)

Is Paul teaching universalism, namely, that all creatures will eventually be saved and none will be punished forever? Does this mean that one day God will reconcile to himself all unbelievers who have ever lived and even the devil? And to what, or whom, does the all refer to? Consider Colosssians 3:5-13:

5. Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6. Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 . in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.
8 . But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9. Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10. and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11. where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.12. Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; 13. bearing with one another, and forgiving one another....

Paul says, "Here there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free man; but Christ is all, and in all." Taking the phrase "Christ is all and in all" by itself, you might say that it taught universalism: "Christ is all and in all human beings without exception." But we know that is not what he means, Christ is in those who have faith in Him, and them alone. We are a "new creation"; in the new humanity that Christ is creating, He is all and in all.

Look again at how the paragraph, 1:16-20 is organized. The scope of verse 15-17 is all creation. The whole universe is in view. And the point is that Christ is preeminent over all creation, because He made it and he holds it all together. But then in verses 18-21, the focus appears to shift and the scope is no longer the whole universe but the new creation, namely the church. Notice how verse 18 turns from creation to the church: "He is the head of the body, the church." in this context of the church, we read verse 20, that "he will reconcile all things to himself in heaven and on earth." So how can it be shown that the "all" in 1:20 is universal while it is obviously limited in 3:11? I think the "all things" in verse 20 should be limited the same way the "all" in 3:11 was limited - to the church.

I am surprised you stopped at Colossians 1:20 and apparently did not consider what Paul said in the following verses:

Colossians 1:21-23
21. And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22. in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23. if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

So those to whom Paul wrote were already reconciled, but it was conditional, dependent on their continuing faithfulness.

[steve7150]

Although Paul spoke first about "all things" and then about believers afterwards , he may have been speaking first prophetically because in Rom 4 , i believe Paul says God speaks of things that are not yet as though they are.
I think Paul said that God called Abram, "Abraham" though he was not yet a father of nations and God IMO often speaks through Paul using the same method, particularly when we see many statements referring to reconciliation of all things.
God is saying that this reconciliation of all things is the endgame, the final chapter, the fruition of his will of which he says he works all things according to the council of his own will." Eph 1.11

"In whom alao we have obtained an inheritance , being predestined according to the purpose of him who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of his own will." Eph 1.11

What is his will?

[Homer]

What is his will?

I think His will is complex. In regard to salvation I believe it is His will that people come to Him through faith - they believe Him, and trust in Him. Apodictic knowledge is not faith. After the judgement it is too late for faith as defined in the scriptures. Salvation is conditional.