How Will They Be Saved?

[Homer]

Hebrews 11:1
1. Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Orthodox Christianity holds that all who are saved will be saved by faith. As Paul wrote, the life of faith is a battle. The reward a "crown of life". The Christian perseveres until death through varying trials, struggles, temptations, and doubts. Yes, doubts. Belief is challenged. "There is no God, Jesus is a myth, there is no proof, man has evolved, there is no creator." And many have suffered and died for their faith, and are as tempted as Joseph in Egypt. Yet they persevere. If they fall they get up and back on the path.

In spite of no objective proof, the Christian believes because of the testimony. We believe the word of the gospel; that Jesus died for our sins, that He rose from the dead, that He is Lord, and that He will return one day to judge every person for what they have done. The justified will be with the Lord forever and the lost will be irrevocably condemned. And this last thing the universalist rejects.

The question I have for universalists is how they believe the condemned at the judgement will ever be justified? Given the scriptural definition of faith, quoted above, how is it possible for them to have faith, an abstract condition, when they have objective proof, beyond any question, of Jesus' resurrection and that He is Lord? You say they confess Jesus as Lord, that every knee shall bow and confess? But how will that confession justify them when it is not from faith? How will God see any value in such a confession?

"Without faith it is impossible to please Him".

[steve]

Though I am not a universalist (but, as you know, am sympathetic), I am interested in what may or may not qualify as faith. Thomas did not believe until he had seen the resurrected Christ. While it is true that Jesus pronounced a special beatitude upon those who (unlike Thomas) believed without seeing, yet He did not disqualify Thomas from being a believer.

Actually, the same is true of all the apostles. They all refused to believe the report of the resurrection until they had some visible evidence.

Faith is not merely belief in the facts, but rather confidence in the person of Christ. This faith is apparently possible even to those who have been slow to come to faith, but who become convinced by sight.

[Todd]

Paul's conversion is a good example also. He saw the Lord and was immediately converted. This is how I believe it will be at the resurrection. All who see him will likewise be converted.

Todd

[Homer]

Steve wrote:

Though I am not a universalist (but, as you know, am sympathetic), I am interested in what may ot may not qualify as faith. Thomas did not believe until he had seen the resurrected Christ. While it is true that Jesus pronounced a special beatitude upon those who (unlike Thomas) believed without seeing, yet He did not disqualify Thomas from being a believer.

Actually, the same is true of all the apostles. They all refused to believe the report of the resurrection until they had some visible evidence.

Faith is not merely belief in the facts, but rather confidence in the person of Christ. This faith is apparently possible even to those who have been slow to come to faith, but who become convinced by sight.

And Todd wrote:

Paul's conversion is a good example also. He saw the Lord and was immediately converted. This is how I believe it will be at the resurrection. All who see him will likewise be converted.

Those are answers I would have given if I were a universalist; I anticipated those arguments. But there is a vast difference. Jesus' "faithful (Grk. pistos) until death" anticipates a life, however much remains, of testing of the believer's faith. It is correct that saving faith has the aspect of trust; pistos (faithful) means believing, trusting. Those who saw the risen Lord, including Paul, had much to endure. And they had to believe, and trust, that through it all Jesus would be with them and would come back and reward them, just as He (and Peter) said, "and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away", (1 Peter 5:4).

I am sure their faith was tested, as it is for all:

1 Peter 1:6-9
New King James Version (NKJV)

6. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7. that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8. whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9. receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

Again I question the value of a "faith" that is an admission of that which is beyond any doubt, and a confession which is made under compulsion. How could that possibly bring praise, honor, and glory to God? Under compulsion and faced with the obvious, they are forced to "stop calling God a liar" (Francis Schaeffer).

If there is justification of the lost beyond death, it necessarily must be on some other basis. Perhaps the universalist will posit some sort of reincarnation, as Origen appears to have considered among his other speculations.

[steve7150]

Again I question the value of a "faith" that is an admission of that which is beyond any doubt, and a confession which is made under compulsion. How could that possibly bring praise, honor, and glory to God? Under compulsion and faced with the obvious, they are forced to "stop calling God a liar" (Francis Schaeffer).

If there is justification of the lost beyond death, it necessarily must be on some other basis. Perhaps the universalist will posit some sort of reincarnation, as Origen appears to have considered among his other speculations.Homer






This argument "faith under compulsion" after death comes from where Homer? Was Paul under compulsion or Thomas or James , maybe a sane person who is not blinded by the devil will not need to be under compulsion to accept Christ as Lord if he sees him after this life ends. The bible says "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess" , yet not a word about being forced to do so, rather Paul actually said "no one can declare Christ as Lord except by the Holy Spirit." I also think the greek word for "confess" even inplies a voluntary confession. Whatever testing God does or not, we are not told.
Your mocking about reincarnation Homer reveals the depth of your sincerity toward CU when you told us if it were true you would say "hooray". It's fine if it rubs you the wrong way because perhaps because you find it unjust, just admit it.

[Homer]

steve7150,

No mocking intended. Origen is said to have believed in the preexistence of our soul and some claim that he believed in reincaranation, though there seems to be no proof. Some of his speculations, while perhaps not reincaranation per se, are very unorthodox. He seems to have believed, or speculated, that the saved might fail again in the hereafter.

The rest of your response fails to address the issue. Certainly Satan and the demons recognized who Jesus was. I'm not too sure they were illuminated by the Spirit. When you quote Paul, please show what he meant, not just what he said.

I do not care much for speculation; ironically I am asking for it because regarding this issue that is all that's available to the univerrsalist. I would like to see their explanation of a plausable way that the lost will be justified. and in a way that glorifies God.

[Todd]

Homer,

In this present life, is there any benefit to having faith in Christ? Does being a Christain involve any special significance other than a hope of something in the next life? Is there any special quality to one's life enjoyed by the faithful? I am certain that the answer to these questions is yes. It is also true that many afflictions indescriminately harm believers and non-believers alike; such as, health issues, acts of nature, and even the oppression of dictators. But, for those who walk in the Spirit there is love, joy, peace, etc. Only by a faithful walk are these realized in one's life. But those who walk after the flesh will reap corruption and all its consequences.

In the resurrection, faith is replaced by sight. Every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess Christ as Lord. Corruption will put on incorruption. We are sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body, which to me means we will no longer be tempted as our "natural man" is today, but we will be innately spiritual, following Christ.

Todd

[steve7150]

Certainly Satan and the demons recognized who Jesus was. I'm not too sure they were illuminated by the Spirit. When you quote Paul, please show what he meant, not just what he said.

I do not care much for speculation; ironically I am asking for it because regarding this issue that is all that's available to the univerrsalist. I would like to see their explanation of a plausable way that the lost will be justified in a way that glorifies God.Homer







Homer,
Actually CU is stated in such a straightforward manner that it paradoxically contributes to the lack of acceptance of it. God's will is clear and Eph 1 says God's will is purposed in Christ and will be accomplished in the fullness of time. Anyway i'm working now but i'll be back with my own speculation after i can think about your question.

[Paidion]

I would like to see [the universalists'] explanation of a plausable way that the lost will be justified. and in a way that glorifies God.

Homer, how are you using the word "justified"? In the usual fundamentalist sense of being "counted righteous" whether you are or not?

The word "δικαιοω" in Greek, not only means "to show to be righteous" but also "to render righteous", as any good lexicon will indicate. When the lost repent (have a change of heart and mind", they will be coöperating with God's grace, and so He will be able to render them righteous, not merely counting them righteous, but with their willingness to be righteous, actually make it happen. That is the case with the true disciple of Christ in our day, and it will be no different then.

Many people today consider faith to be the first step into salvation. No, repentance is the first step. Faith is that by which one appropriates the enabling grace (Titus 2) of God.
Abraham's faith wasn't counted instead (ἀντι) of righteousness; it was counted with the goal (ἐις) of righteousness. God isn't interested in merely regarding us as righteous; He is interested in our actually being righteous.

[Homer]

Hello Paidion,

Good to have you chime in! You wrote:

so He will be able to render them righteous, not merely counting them righteous, but with their willingness to be righteous, actually make it happen. That is the case with the true disciple of Christ in our day, and it will be no different then.

He is interested in our actually being righteous.

So you are a "faith + works" advocate. That's a rather Roman Catholic idea. (Unless I misunderstand you) But that is another issue. How do you see the lost doing "works of righteousness" in hell? They are "dead". And what is there to do in that place? Jesus said "night is coming when no man can work". They have to be "made alive" to do any work. If works of righteousness makes you righteous it would seem to put the cart before the horse.

Abraham's faith wasn't counted instead (ἀντι) of righteousness; it was counted with the goal (ἐις) of righteousness. God isn't interested in merely regarding us as righteous; He is interested in our actually being righteous.

I don't think I am understanding you. Eis denotes progress from one state or place to another. By faith Abraham moved into (eis) the state of righteousness.