The "Narrow Path" and UR

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TK
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The "Narrow Path" and UR

Post by TK » Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:12 am

As my wife asks questions about UR, I am just going to post them individually, which should help keep the topics easier to follow.
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. Mt. 7:13-14
In the UR scheme of things:

1) what is "destruction?"
2) what is "life." Is it eternal life?

In regard to "life," my best guess is that a UR proponent would say that few persons actually experience "abundant life" in THIS life as that term was intended by Jesus(because they are not disciples of Jesus).

What I am less clear on is what is meant by "destruction."

TK

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Paidion
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Re: The "Narrow Path" and UR

Post by Paidion » Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:55 pm

The word "destruction" also occurs in I Thess 1:5-10 concerning “lasting destruction” as well as exclusion from the presence of the Lord for those who afflict Christ’s disciples. Here the passage:

... God deems it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant rest with us to you who are afflicted, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting judgment upon those who do not know God and upon those who are not persuaded by the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They shall suffer the punishment of lasting destruction, and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marvelled at in all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. Thess 1:6-10

Let’s first consider the exclusion from the presence of the Lord. The passage tells us the exclusion will take place “when He comes on that day to be glorified in His saints”. I am sure we all agree, with the possible exception of … that the Lord Jesus, when He returns will not accept those who have rebelled against Him. The reason is the character of these rebels will not have changed at that time, and so He will “inflict judgment” upon them. It is not necessary to infer from the fact that they will be excluded from His presence “when He comes on that day” that this exclusion will be everlasting.

As to the “lasting destruction”, I translated the Greek word “aiōnion” as “lasting”, which I believe to be the best English equivalent to the word. It should never be translated as “eternal”, and especially here. “Eternal destruction” is an oxymoron. If something is destroyed, the destructive process has come to an end; it doesn’t continue indefinitely.

I invite you to consider how “destroy” is sometimes used in the scriptures as shown in the following passage from I Peter 1:3-7

Praise be the God and Father of the Anointed Lord Jesus, who, in keeping with His great mercy has regenerated us for the purpose of a living hope, through the resurrection of the Anointed Jesus from the dead, into an incorruptible and undefiled inheritance reserved in heaven for you, who, by the power of God are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed at the last time. In this you exult, yet for a little while, if necessary, grieving in various trials in order that the testing of you of the faith, very valuable, gold being destroyed through fire, yet being tested, may be found for praise and glory and honour at the revealing of Jesus the Anointed.

Peter compared either the testing of his readers' faith, or else the testing of his readers themselves, to gold being destroyed by fire. Now we all know that pure gold cannot be destroyed by fire. It can be melted, but cannot be destroyed (in the sense of annihilation). What then, did Peter mean? Did he not mean that gold in its original form (gold ore) can be destroyed by fire so that the pure gold can come forth? Was he not referring to the refining process? When we undergo various trials, our character can be refined.

But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner‘s fire and like fullers’ soap. Malachi 3:2 RSV

Both fire and soap can purify. That is what the Lord can do for a person, and sometimes He does it through trials.

Someone may object that some translations refer to gold as being “perishable” in I Peter 3:7, and again in verse 18, where Peter clearly speaks of gold being perishable.

1 Peter 1:18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers.

However,Peter used a different word from that which he used in verse 7. The word is better translated as “corruptible”. The Greek word is the adjective “phthartos” which is derived from the verb “phtheirō”. The Online Bible Lexicon gives the following note for the latter word:

In the opinion of the Jews, the temple was corrupted or "destroyed" when anyone defiled or in the slightest degree damaged anything in it, or if its guardians neglected their duties.

So gold can be corrupted in this sense, it can be scratched or dirtied, or altered in other ways. But pure gold cannot be “destroyed” in the sense of being annihilated, at least not by fire.

Now to complete what I believe to be Paul’s meaning of the lasting destruction of the wicked. They will suffer a very severe refinement in the fires of Gehenna which will destroy their sinful, wicked natures, until the pure “gold” shines forth. Of course, they, themselves will have to repent and submit to Messiah Jesus in order for the refining process to be effective. And perhaps, the fully mature sons of God will have a part in bringing the truth to these people.

Sometimes, the righteous suffer such a refining process in this life. The refining of the wicked in that day will be much, much, more severe. I don't doubt that less refining will be necessary for those who have never heard the gospel in this life (some of them have never heard of Jesus). Whatever the case, God will do what is best for every individual, until all are reconciled to Him!
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Paidion
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Re: The "Narrow Path" and UR

Post by Paidion » Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:02 pm

As for the narrow gate, there are few that find it, as Jesus said. This road to life is travelled only by Jesus' disciples. In my opinion, fewer than 1% of all people are on the narrow road (or "path") that leads to life.
Those who stay on that path, will not require the severe correction of Gehenna that those who are on the broad way will have to endure.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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Homer
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Re: The "Narrow Path" and UR

Post by Homer » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:49 pm

Paidion,

You wrote:
As to the “lasting destruction”, I translated the Greek word “aiōnion” as “lasting”, which I believe to be the best English equivalent to the word. It should never be translated as “eternal”, and especially here.
Especially not here; that will not do, nor will everlasting. Of course all those translators are wrong. "Lasting" is a much better translation of aionios. You know - God is lasting, His glory is lasting, His power is lasting, we inherit lasting life, and so on.

Paidion, you remind me of the pedobaptist pracher who claimed the household baptism of Lydia's family in Acts 16 was proof of infant baptism. He was challenged on this by another preacher who said Lydia's family consisted of two sons who were grown and mentioned their trades. The pedobaptist challenged his authority for this statement and the other preacher responded "my authority is the same as yours; I made it up!

This is pure fantasy:
Now to complete what I believe to be Paul’s meaning of the lasting destruction of the wicked. They will suffer a very severe refinement in the fires of Gehenna which will destroy their sinful, wicked natures, until the pure “gold” shines forth. Of course, they, themselves will have to repent and submit to Messiah Jesus in order for the refining process to be effective. And perhaps, the fully mature sons of God will have a part in bringing the truth to these people.

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Paidion
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Re: The "Narrow Path" and UR

Post by Paidion » Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:46 pm

Fantasy is great when it reflects reality! Read C.S. Lewis and George Macdonald's works of fantasy, and you'll understand.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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