Rob Bell: Universalist?

[Sean]

It's at least valid to consider that although God clearly stated He would cut off the unfaithful in Israel, He, at various times did give them multiple chances to repent. At the same time, once judgment started, it destroyed the unfaithful permanently.

The unfaithful died, but they will be resurrected. I would not call this a "permanent" destruction.

Todd

I was drawing a comparison between the promises of God, including promises to judge those in Israel. But God extended grace beyond what one might expect. So there were times when God would call Israel to repentance even when they deserved judgment. I could see how people could use this "model" of how God has interacted with Israel and maybe expect God to do something similar at the resurrection.

My point about being destroyed permanently is actually an idea of Paul found here:

Rom 9:27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28 for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay." 29 And as Isaiah predicted, "If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah."

Israel continued on, through it's faithful remnant. God preserved them. However, the same cannot be said for Sodom & Gomorrah. That was all I meant. While one can hope for the possibility for repentance after death, all I can say to that is there is no scripture stating this to be the case. And judging by what God did to the physical seed of Sodom & Gomorrah and the unfaithful of Israel, the lost will ultimately be cut off from life in Christ at the resurrection. I can and do hope God does offer another chance, but if there are more chances after death, they have to be counted as one of those secret things of God.

[Todd]

I can and do hope God does offer another chance, but if there are more chances after death, they have to be counted as one of those secret things of God.

Rom 8:18-23
18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

It's passages like this one that give me hope for mankind's fate in the end.

Todd

[darinhouston]

It's passages like this one that give me hope for mankind's fate in the end.

Todd

How so? I see this as a redemption passage of course, but not universal in scope. Do you see anything to suggest it's speaking of all humanity instead of just the created order apart from humanity? It speaks of the one who subdued it (Adam?) as if he was not part of creation in that context. Also, if it has in mind all individuals, regardless of their state as sons of God then the entire preceding passage seems silly, which seems to contrast the sons of God and their sufferings and their "revealing" with others who are not sons of God or suffered or etc. It's talking about the hope of the believers, and the renewed creation that they will enjoy, no ?

[Todd]

It's passages like this one that give me hope for mankind's fate in the end.

Todd

How so? I see this as a redemption passage of course, but not universal in scope. Do you see anything to suggest it's speaking of all humanity instead of just the created order apart from humanity? It speaks of the one who subdued it (Adam?) as if he was not part of creation in that context. Also, if it has in mind all individuals, regardless of their state as sons of God then the entire preceding passage seems silly, which seems to contrast the sons of God and their sufferings and their "revealing" with others who are not sons of God or suffered or etc. It's talking about the hope of the believers, and the renewed creation that they will enjoy, no ?

Darin,

The "creation" mentioned in Rom 8:21 I believe to be the same creation in the following...

Mark 16:15
He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation."

They were not preaching to rocks and trees, but to all of humanity.

Todd

[steve7150]

20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God






To me at least this is speaking of the fall of mankind as inanimate things are not subject to frustration , nor do they have choices.
There may not be explicit individual examples of people being saved after death but there are many allusions to it like these verses. In addition there is nothing explicitly preventing it, and for justice to be served it's seems to me it must happen. We have people who never met Christ on this side like Rehab, yet she is in heaven therefore where did she meet him since no one comes to the Father except by Christ.

[charleswest]

It's passages like this one that give me hope for mankind's fate in the end.

Todd

How so? I see this as a redemption passage of course, but not universal in scope. Do you see anything to suggest it's speaking of all humanity instead of just the created order apart from humanity? It speaks of the one who subdued it (Adam?) as if he was not part of creation in that context. Also, if it has in mind all individuals, regardless of their state as sons of God then the entire preceding passage seems silly, which seems to contrast the sons of God and their sufferings and their "revealing" with others who are not sons of God or suffered or etc. It's talking about the hope of the believers, and the renewed creation that they will enjoy, no ?

Darin,

The "creation" mentioned in Rom 8:21 I believe to be the same creation in the following...

Mark 16:15
He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation."

They were not preaching to rocks and trees, but to all of humanity.

Todd

They were not preaching to rocks and trees, but to all of humanity.

Yet, preaching the Gospel to Rocks and Trees would certainly do no harm. It might even be good practice!

[darinhouston]

Tell me this -- do you see "the will of the one who subjected it" as a reference to God? or to Adam? or something else?

[steve7150]

Tell me this -- do you see "the will of the one who subjected it" as a reference to God? or to Adam? or something else?








God, because we were subjected "in hope" to be liberated from the bondage of decay. That's God's stated will, not in these exact words but it's a part of salvation.

[darinhouston]

If you're right, then I think it's Christ (who puts all under his feet). But, I'm curious if anyone else reads this as referringnnot to God but to Adam.

[Todd]

If you're right, then I think it's Christ (who puts all under his feet). But, I'm curious if anyone else reads this as referringnnot to God but to Adam.

I can see how one could conclude either way (Adam or God), but it doesn't really matter to the point I was making. I see this passage confirming other scriptures regarding the order of the resurrection: Christians first, then everyone else. But this passage takes it a bit further by saying everyone else (the creation) will share in the same glorious liberty with the Sons of God (Christians). The difference between 'unending torment' and 'glorious liberty' is like black and white.

Todd