Rob Bell: Universalist?

[look2jesus]

Romans 8:18-23 NKJV

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

I see several things that, to my mind, wouldn’t allow the interpretation of “ktisis” (creation), in this context, to be anything other than the natural world, excluding humankind.

1.) I think it is obvious that in vs.19 Paul is speaking metaphorically when he says that the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. This “revealing” I take to be a reference to the resurrection. And since when do the unregenerate eagerly await this event?

2.) If the reference to creation is somehow speaking of mankind, how is it that it could be said that they were subjected to futility “not willingly”? It seems to me that the scriptures teach that mankind was willingly subjected to futility in Adam.

3.) Genesis 3:17-19 seems to be a better accounting of how creation was subjected to futility “not willingly”.

4.) Vss. 22 and 23 show that “now” this creation is groaning and laboring with birth pangs and Paul compares this to the same type of groaning that those who have the firstfruits of the Spirit experience. What could be a more fitting way to describe how we, as believers, long to put off this corruptible body and be clothed with that which is incorruptible? Though we experience this groaning now, we are waiting for the time of the resurrection for this situation to change. And isn’t it clear that the earth and the heavens are going to be changed at the same time? It may be that after the judgment the unregenerate will have a change of heart and wish to repent but what Paul has described here is what the current situation is and I don’t see how the unregenerate can be described as groaning and laboring with eager anticipation to be delivered from this current bondage.

Another possible argument against UR is related to this and is found in 2 Peter 3.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless;15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

Why does Peter say that the Lord is delaying His coming? Because He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. I understand that this is not an airtight case against UR but my question is why would Jesus feel the need to be longsuffering toward us, for the specific reason of giving men time to repent, if the UR view is correct? It seems to me that, at least here in 2 Peter, we are not given a lot of hope that after the judgment mankind will have much of an opportunity to repent.

[steve7150]

2.) If the reference to creation is somehow speaking of mankind, how is it that it could be said that they were subjected to futility “not willingly”? It seems to me that the scriptures teach that mankind was willingly subjected to futility in Adam.





I think that only man can be willing or unwilling and so i think Paul is saying it was God's plan for man to fall because "knowing good and evil they have become like us." Another words without the experience of evil we would not understand good, without hate we would not appreciate love, without dark we would not seek out light, without sin we would not understand righteousness and through this present evil age we do learn compassion and mercy.
We learn by contrasts because we were made to learn that way and i don't think it's an accident that Adam fell yet if this is true it does'nt mean we are not accountable to God nor does this have to be only a UR belief.

[steve7150]

Just want to add that even if Adam's fall was not by God's design , that it still was God who cursed the ground and created the thorns and thistles for man to deal with. Mankind as a whole had to deal with the curse and thorns and thistles not willingly , but Paul is explaining why God created these things , for hope through experiencing evil for man, not vengence on God's part.
Either way it is God who created evil (curses & thorns & thistles) as a tool for good, which is why believers have to trust God on this and unbelievers number one reason for rejecting God is the existence of pain and suffering. Paul is telling us , the why.

[Todd]

Three things to consider....

1. Rocks and Trees cannot feel frustration or futility; only man can feel this.
2. Mankind was part of creation, so even if you include rocks and trees, there is no basis to exclude mankind.
3. The subject here is the resurrection of the dead and the bondage to decay. When someone dies, his body decays. This is the futility that Paul is speaking of here. Mankind is to be released from this bondage in the resurrection to join the Sons of God in glorious liberty.

Todd

[brody196]

3. The subject here is the resurrection of the dead and the bondage to decay. When someone dies, his body decays. This is the futility that Paul is speaking of here. Mankind is to be released from this bondage in the resurrection to join the Sons of God in glorious liberty.

Todd

But not all are raised to "everlasting life",as many will be raised to "everlasting shame and contempt"(Daniel 12:2)

[Todd]

But not all are raised to "everlasting life",as many will be raised to "everlasting shame and contempt"(Daniel 12:2)

It is my belief that being raised to "everlasting life" is what the following verse describes...

Col 2:12
buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

One is raised to eternal life through faith in Christ - it is not speaking of the resurrection when Christ returns. The shame and contempt suffered by the unrighteous refers to the condemnation of the Holy Spirit upon the world (John 16:8).

My views are somewhat different from many Universalists who believe in a post-resurrection correction period for the unrighteous. As an Ultra-Universalist, I believe that all the dead are changed in the resurrection and raised in full and willing subjection to Christ. When death, the last enemy, is destroyed, Christ has no more enemies (1 Cor 15:26). All are raised praising His Name.

The warnings in the Bible about God's punishment for sin refer to its present-life consequences and the downward fall into corruption for those who are overcome by it (Gal 6:8). Sin is a cancer which not only has negative impacts on the sinner, but also often results in collateral damage which hurts the innocent.

I have not received any support for this view on this forum, but it makes the most sense to me. By the way, the term "Ultra-Universalist" was originated in the 19th century refering to those Christians who held this view. One of the most notable was Hosea Ballou.

Todd

[brody196]

But not all are raised to "everlasting life",as many will be raised to "everlasting shame and contempt"(Daniel 12:2)

It is my belief that being raised to "everlasting life" is what the following verse describes...

Col 2:12
buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

One is raised to eternal life through faith in Christ - it is not speaking of the resurrection when Christ returns. The shame and contempt suffered by the unrighteous refers to the condemnation of the Holy Spirit upon the world (John 16:8).

My views are somewhat different from many Universalists who believe in a post-resurrection correction period for the unrighteous. As an Ultra-Universalist, I believe that all the dead are changed in the resurrection and raised in full and willing subjection to Christ. When death, the last enemy, is destroyed, Christ has no more enemies (1 Cor 15:26). All are raised praising His Name.

The warnings in the Bible about God's punishment for sin refer to its present-life consequences and the downward fall into corruption for those who are overcome by it (Gal 6:8). Sin is a cancer which not only has negative impacts on the sinner, but also often results in collateral damage which hurts the innocent.

I have not received any support for this view on this forum, but it makes the most sense to me. By the way, the term "Ultra-Universalist" was originated in the 19th century refering to those Christians who held this view. One of the most notable was Hosea Ballou.

Todd

Hi Todd,

It is my belief that being raised to "everlasting life" is what the following verse describes...

Col 2:12
buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

One is raised to eternal life through faith in Christ - it is not speaking of the resurrection when Christ returns. The shame and contempt suffered by the unrighteous refers to the condemnation of the Holy Spirit upon the world (John 16:8).

In what way could "raised to" refer to "the shame and contempt suffered by unrighteous"? I am aware that some of the "raised to life" passages can be taken in a spiritual context(Eph 2), but can't see how "raised to condemnation and contempt" could refer to the present life of unrepentant sinner.

My views are somewhat different from many Universalists who believe in a post-resurrection correction period for the unrighteous. As an Ultra-Universalist, I believe that all the dead are changed in the resurrection and raised in full and willing subjection to Christ. When death, the last enemy, is destroyed, Christ has no more enemies (1 Cor 15:26). All are raised praising His Name.

Ive never heard of that view, but nonetheless I can't see how it squares with the passages that speak of fearing God, whom after He has destroyed the body, can also destroy the soul in hell(Matthew 10:28)

And are you suggesting that unrepentant sinners like Hitler, Nero, Etc..will simply wake up at the resurrection in a glorified state, ready and willing to serve God? Where is the justice in a view like that?

The warnings in the Bible about God's punishment for sin refer to its present-life consequences and the downward fall into corruption for those who are overcome by it (Gal 6:8). Sin is a cancer which not only has negative impacts on the sinner, but also often results in collateral damage which hurts the innocent.

I have not received any support for this view on this forum, but it makes the most sense to me. By the way, the term "Ultra-Universalist" was originated in the 19th century refering to those Christians who held this view. One of the most notable was Hosea Ballou.

Not all sinners receive punishment in this life. Psalm 73 speaks on the contrary of such a position. So again I ask, where is the justice in such a view?

[darinhouston]

Mankind as a whole had to deal with the curse and thorns and thistles not willingly

There's another way to look at it -- it's not that they wanted the curse and thorns and thistles, but that those things came from an exercise of Adam's will (his willful disobedience).

[steve7150]

There's another way to look at it -- it's not that they wanted the curse and thorns and thistles, but that those things came from an exercise of Adam's will (his willful disobedience).





We agree since Adam willfully sinned but had no choice but to accept curses,thorns and thistles, "not willingly."

[darinhouston]

That seems so obvious not to be the point being made -- other translations say "not by its own choice" instead of "not willingly" -- and the referrant seems clearly to be "the creation" (a thing, not a person).