UR

[RV]

I've pick up a couple of books recently on the UR view and have been on some good web-sites.

My biggest issue that I can't seem to over come is the definition of eternal/ages. I know most of it hinges on this for the UR view.

So far the UR view seems to have the best logical arguments (at least to me, probably because I find hope and excitement in it).

BUT... the arguments for the definition of eternal/ages seems to be lacking.

I for sure see why and how AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS, has to be translated as ages in some passages, but it doesn't seem to fit the context in other passages.

John 3:16 for example.

Can any of you shed some light on this?

RV

[Paidion]

I think the confusion arises because "AIÓN" means "ages", and because "AIÓNIOS" is the adjectival form of this word, some assume that the definition must somehow include the word "age" in it. At one time, I thought the adjective meant "going from age to age", and expressed that thought in this forum.

Having looked the word up in secular and other sources, I have concluded that the best English translation of the adjective is "lasting". One secular source used it as part of a description of a stone wall. Also, the Jewish historian Josephus, used the word in reference to the length of the prison sentence of a person called "Jonathan". It has been said that that it was a 3-year sentence.... hardly "eternal". Though the word doesn't mean "eternal" it sometimes is used in reference to that which is eternal. Thus in your example in John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have lasting life."

[RV]

Is it probable that punishment would be lasting as well? Never ending?

I just can't understand why lasting life really means lasting life. But lasting punishment doesn't mean lasting punishment.

There seems to be a simular argument for those opposing the UR view.

For as in Adam all die, so also in *Christ all will be made alive (1 Cor. 15:22)

For as in Adam all die... <------ "all" means all here.

... so also in Christ all will be made alive. <------ "all" doesn't mean all here.

[steve7150]

For as in Adam all die, so also in *Christ all will be made alive (1 Cor. 15:22)







"Aion" is used in various ways in different contexts and seems to be an undefined amount of time that only God knows. Therefore i think it boils down to how we view the character of God and how we view justice which influences how we define "aion" in situations that relate to the punishment and hopefully redemption of the unsaved.

[RV]

steve7150,

Interesting take... never though of it that way. Good point, thanks.

RV

[Homer]

Hi RV,

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in a rather scornful tone,
"it means just what I choose it to mean, nothing less, and nothing more."
-- Through The Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll

And we have been assured now by the UR folks that all of the promises of aionios life mean we have lasting life - as long as a rock wall anyway.

Then of coarse in Romans 16:26 the aionios God is merely said to be "lasting". Then in 2 Corinthians 4:18 the world we see around us is said to be temporal, contrasted with the unseen future that awaits us which is "lasting" aionios.

Websters: lasting adj existing or continuing a long while.

When folks realize that Jonah was said to be in the belly of the whale for aionios you would think they might catch on to words having a figurative and literal usage.

Our in house Greek lexicographer has a bit of work to do.

God bless, Homer

[Paidion]

Is it probable that punishment would be lasting as well? Never ending?

Corrective punishment is lasting as well. The relevant passage is found in the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46

Verse 46 states:

And these [who did not serve Christ] will depart into αἰωνιος correction but the righteous into αἰωνιος life.

Clearly "αἰωνιος" (aiōnios) has the same meaning in both places in this verse. The English word "lasting" will do in each case. The correction of those who depart could not be "eternal" as some translate it. For then they would always be in the process of being corrected, but would never in fact be corrected. The righteous depart into lasting life. Things that are eternal can be described as "lasting" and things that are temporal can be described as "lasting". Whether the thing described is eternal or temporal is not inherent in the meaning of "αἰωνιος".

Some will argue that the Greek word "κολασις" (kolasis) in verse 46 should be translated "punishment", and it is so translated in many versions of the Bible. But the word was originally used in respect to pruning plants. Plants are pruned in order to correct their growth. So the word later was used figuratively in reference to correction of people.

The Greek word for retributive punishment is τιμωρια (timōria). This is the word which Matthew would have used if Jesus had meant eternal punishment in Gehenna or "hell". For eternal punishment would have no purpose other than retribution or vengeance, in order to "give them what they deserve" ---- an infinite punishment for a finite quantity of sin committed during a life time of 70 to 110 years. God is just. Would an infinite punishment of sin committed for a finite length of time be just?

Homer, I'm sure your bits of sarcasm will be taken into account.

[steve7150]

The righteous depart into lasting life. Things that are eternal can be described as "lasting" and things that are temporal can be described as "lasting". Whether the thing described is eternal or temporal is not inherent in the meaning of "αἰωνιος".



Matt 25.46 is the strongest verse that the folks who believe in eternal torment have in the bible , yet it isn't quite so clear. One explanation is that the "righteous" already are immortality as Paul said so the length of life to the already immortal is a moot point. Another possibility is that eternal life is a description of God, not a length of time and perhaps so is eternal punishment another description of God. The eternal punishment is punishment by God without any one size fits all length of time for anyone from Hitler to Nice Non Christian Grandma.

[backwoodsman]

Clearly "αἰωνιος" (aiōnios) has the same meaning in both places in this verse. The English word "lasting" will do in each case. ...[chomp]... Some will argue that the Greek word "κολασις" (kolasis) in verse 46 should be translated "punishment", and it is so translated in many versions of the Bible. But the word was originally used in respect to pruning plants. Plants are pruned in order to correct their growth. So the word later was used figuratively in reference to correction of people.

Robertson seems to disagree with you on both counts:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commenta ... 25-46.html

Thayer also:
aionios: without beginning and end; or, without beginning; or, without end.
kolasis: correction, punishment, penalty.

Would you mind sharing with us the source of your Greek scholarship?

I'm not prepared at this time to take a firm position on eternal punishment, but I do want to be as accurate as possible with the text.

-Dan

[Jepne]

The thought that God would punish people forever just because they had never heard of Jesus never made sense and seems unbelievably cruel to me when He says that His anger will not last forever, and that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. And Jesus, who came to show us the way to the Father, brought up matters of the Law to show us that now those things are heart issues.

The so-called ‘Faith’ teachings say that we should argue like lawyers before God to ‘get our healing’. But Paul calls him “Daddy”.

I did not understand Jesus until I was thirty-three years old, but I can see now that all through those years He was wooing me and I was seeking Him, and I was so very happy when finally I could see Him and enter into that relationship with Him, falling deeply in love with Him, and I did not have to wait for the phone to ring. For many who do not have that relationship, being a Christian means subscribing to certain doctrines.

I thank God for the teachers who explain the scriptures in view of the heart of God. God is love.

How are we to correct our children? Beat them and lock them in a room forever for their crimes? Or does our God who is incredibly creative show just how to correct that child so that he will come to see the error of his ways and change them? And if the child does not know God? A good father will teach him. And God is a good Father.

Once the thought came to me that if I had died before I found Jesus, and I would have gone to a place of torment and ugliness forever, then God must not have loved me all those years that He was sending His Holy Spirit to woo me and win my heart to Him. I felt absolutely terrible and betrayed until I came to my senses and realized He did love me all along and He would have seen to it that I would get to be with Him in the Resurrection somehow. That is my eternal security; not the doctrines of man. Jepne