The "Evangelical Universalist" is Revealed! (interview)

[RickC]

From the site description -

"The Evangelical Universalist" was published several years ago. The author claimed to be an evangelical Christian who believes that everyone will ultimately be saved. He published under a pen name ("Gregory McDonald"), but recently revealed his true identity as Robin Parry, editorial director of UK Christian publisher Paternoster.

While Robin's views do not represent those of Paternoster, he tells why he has personally come to believe that the Bible teaches that everyone will ultimately be saved.

Laurence M Blanchard (who opposes universalism in the interview), a pastor and author in California responds to Robin's arguments and raises questions such as "what's the point of evangelism if everyone will be saved?"
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Unbelievable! UK radio broadcast link (see 17 Oct 2009) -
http://www.premier.org.uk/unbelievable?mod_page=5

The interview was in an 'irenic' atmosphere and quite 'revealing'.
(Who's this mysterious "Gregory McDonald" fellow)? and so on....
I no longer discuss universalism, myself.
Just offering this interview, FYI, etc., etc.

Thanks!

P.S. 'Highly recommend Unbelievable! program (on other topics too)!
Host Justin Brierley is an excellent, perceptive, even-handed, interviewer.

[steve]

I have heard two Unbelievable podcasts on the subject of Universalism, and in both cases, the question "Why evangelize?" was raised. The answer given by the universalist was adequate (i.e., Even if all will ultimately be saved, some will have hell to endure first...something we should be motivated to avoid and to help others to avoid), but it was not the best answer.

The motivation to evangelize is the same, regardless which view of hell is correct—since hell is not a biblical consideration in any recorded evangelistic encounter in scripture. If we are motivating people to "get saved" in order to avoid hell (whatever its duration), we are not following any scriptural example or mandate, and are simply appealing to a man's selfish interest (the very quality that dominates the sinner and from which he needs to be saved).

A man is saved when he denies himself, and places God's interests above his own. Until then, he is just playing at religion—a game that might not keep him from hell anyway.

Until a person is more concerned that God should get what He deserves than that the sinner (self) should avoid getting what he deserves, we have not really repented of the self-centered core that makes us sinners. Salvation is God-centered (or Christ-centered). Popular evangelism is man-centered—and often produces inferior "conversions."

Even if every sinner could, by the overwhelming mercy of God, end up in heaven—it leaves the central concern unaddressed: "Is God getting what He deserves—and what Christ purchased—out of a man's life?" If the answer is "no," then evangelism is needed.

[RickC]

Hey Steve!

I only listened to the interview once. If I recall it right, they didn't spend a lot of time on the question of evangelism. Will have to do a re-hearing. Maybe they did? I forgot!

Actually a lot of what you addressed (above) came up in a debate between James White (pro-Eternal-Conscious-Torment) and the Forsters (pro-Conditional-Immortality). I linked to this, (also on Unbelievable! program), under "Conditional Immortality Links" @ --
http://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... 076#p45076

Interestingly, White argued that either Calvinism or Universalism has to be correct.
Need to listen to this one again too.
Anyways, thanks!

[steve7150]

Interestingly, White argued that either Calvinism or Universalism has to be correct.
Need to listen to this one again too.



I tend to agree with White though i would disagree which is the correct end. One is God's will and one isn't. BTW i'm just finishing up the book and highly recommend it as Robin Parry brings out many interesting points connecting much scripture from the OT with stmts from Paul and John in Revelation where they seem to answer some open ended statements from Isaiah & other places about the "nations" and God's purposes.
I never read Talbott's book but my impression is that his was more philosophical & Parry adds more scriptural support to it.

[Suzana]

Interestingly, White argued that either Calvinism or Universalism has to be correct.

What a lovely thought...but since I think he's way off on the Calvinism bit, I wonder if he's right regarding this...hopefully yes & hope that he has really good arguments

[RickC]

Hello all!

Truthfully, I can't recall which debate White said that in (White Vs. Forsters).
There were two debates that overlapped, like.

So here's the other one (if you didn't see it).
White (Calvinism) Vs. Forsters (Arminianism) --
http://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=3428
(both on Unbelievable, currently page 6. 1 and 8 Aug, 2009)

Thanks!

[Homer]

Hi steve,

You wrote:

A man is saved when he denies himself, and places God's interests above his own. Until then, he is just playing at religion—a game that might not keep him from hell anyway.

Sometimes it seems to me that you elevate what is better to do, or even what is best to do, into the place of what must be done. Could it be that you confuse what a man must go to be saved with what would be better for a man to do, or even what would be best to do?

When you speak this way, I am reminded of these scriptures:

Romans 5:1
1. Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 10:8-9
8. But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9. that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Acts 16:29-31
29. Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30. And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31. So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Sometimes I think as Christians we tend to say things that cast doubt on the salvation, not of those who deny Jesus, but on the vast majority of confessing Christians. Or perhaps they (and me) are not Christians at all. Some of the things you say, and Paidion in particular, would seem to categorize at least 95% of the folks in the church today as mere pretenders. Do you know of any who place God's interests above their own 100% of the time? How about 90% of the time? And how much of the time is the minimum required? Who can know they are saved?

What does it mean to place God's interests above my own? If I buy anything I do not absolutely need am I placing my interests above God's? And how would a person know? Sometimes I think we heap burdens on folks that they are unable to bear.

Blessings, Homer

[Todd]

Sometimes I think as Christians we tend to say things that cast doubt on the salvation, not of those who deny Jesus, but on the vast majority of confessing Christians. Or perhaps they (and me) are not Christians at all. Some of the things you say, and Paidion in particular, would seem to categorize at least 95% of the folks in the church today as mere pretenders. Do you know of any who place God's interests above their own 100% of the time? How about 90% of the time? And how much of the time is the minimum required? Who can know they are saved?

What does it mean to place God's interests above my own? If I buy anything I do not absolutely need am I placing my interests above God's? And how would a person know? Sometimes I think we heap burdens on folks that they are unable to bear.

Blessings, Homer

We must first answer the question, "From what are we saved?" Is it hell or annihilation? No, we are saved from sin and the consequences it brings upon one's life and those who get caught in its wake. Someone is saved when they have been freed from the condemnation of sin through following the Spirit of Christ.

Evangelism is equally important for the Universalist because sin is the enemy. A life overcome in sin is a miserable existence.

Todd

[steve7150]

Sometimes I think as Christians we tend to say things that cast doubt on the salvation, not of those who deny Jesus, but on the vast majority of confessing Christians. Or perhaps they (and me) are not Christians at all. Some of the things you say, and Paidion in particular, would seem to categorize at least 95% of the folks in the church today as mere pretenders. Do you know of any who place God's interests above their own 100% of the time? How about 90% of the time? And how much of the time is the minimum required? Who can know they are saved?




You brought out an important point if "imputed righteousness" is not true, everything is measured in degrees and no person can know if he really is faithful enough to have salvation. On the other hand "imputed righteousness" has it's own problems like does faith in Christ allow for selfishnes/sinfullness , if so, how much?

[steve]

Todd wrote:

A life overcome in sin is a miserable existence.

This is no doubt often the case, but, as Homer has sometimes pointed out, there are many sinners who seem to be quite oblivious to the "fact" that they are miserable—and the Psalms often puzzle over this observation (e.g., Psalm 73). Paul felt that he, and others in his condition (though righteous), were "of all men most miserable" (1 Cor.15:19).

I do not think that we can count on a sinner's life in this world being his "hell"—since, for many sinners, this life is a paradise. We cannot even speculate that the sinner's secret heart is tormented by the burden of his guilt. It seems to me that the most exquisite pangs of guilt and self-reproach are reserved for those seeking to be holy—"O wretched man that I am!"

But even if the sinner is not miserable, our reason for evangelizing him is not that his life of sin causes him to miss out on the good life, but that his life is an affront to God. God has certain rights, which we acknowledge, and He deserves better than what He is getting out of the life of the sinner (and out of my life also).

God made us for His glory (Isa.43:7). What the sinner has fallen short of is not personal bliss but "the glory of God" (Rom.3:23). I am not concerned to convince myself that sinners are sufficiently miserable (or will be so in the next life) to motivate me to reach them. Our concern is that sinners are defying the God who made and bought them...and our message is that they must stop doing so, for His sake.