No Promise of Eternal Life!

[Homer]

It has often been asserted by participants at this forum that the Greek word aionios means only "age", that it "never means eternal". If this is not false then we have absolutely no promise of eternal life in the scriptures; it is acknowledged there is no such promise in the Old Testament. In the New Testament every promise of eternal life hangs on the meaning of aionios. As I wrote long ago, the interpretation of aionios in Matthew 25 in arguing against eternal consequences for the goats at once eliminates eternal life for the sheep.

So here is your challenge. Show a promise of eternal life without aionios. I say there is none. Perhaps I need correction.

[kaufmannphillips]

And what if there is no promise of eternal life?

[Todd]

It has often been asserted by participants at this forum that the Greek word aionios means only "age", that it "never means eternal". If this is not false then we have absolutely no promise of eternal life in the scriptures; it is acknowledged there is no such promise in the Old Testament. In the New Testament every promise of eternal life hangs on the meaning of aionios. As I wrote long ago, the interpretation of aionios in Matthew 25 in arguing against eternal consequences for the goats at once eliminates eternal life for the sheep.

So here is your challenge. Show a promise of eternal life without aionios. I say there is none. Perhaps I need correction.

Homer,

You seem to be asking, "where is the promise of living forever?" This is different from eternal life, which is literally translated "the life of the age." The promise of living forever has a different name; it is called immortality. Here are a couple of verses that refer to immortality.

2 Tim 1:10
10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

1 Cor 15:51-56
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Eternal life is God's gift in this present age to those who follow Christ in faith. Immortality is what we receive in the resurrection because Christ conquered death for every man. Because Christ was obedient unto death, He was given the power and authority to abolish death (the last enemy) and subject all things to himself.

1 Cor 15:28
Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Todd

[steve7150]

1 Cor 15:51-56
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.after






Exactly right as Paul explicitly states in 1st Cor 15 , which is really the consummation of the ages "For in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive", 1st Cor 15.22. Paul could have said "all in Christ will be made alive" , but he did'nt because he is communicating that the same "all" in Adam is ultimately the same "all" that will be in Christ. Plus he says death will be destroyed after all evil is destroyed first and death remains as the last enemy to be destroyed, 1st Cor 15.24-26.

[RICHinCHRIST]

Homer,

I've thought about your points and also have thought the same things about the sheep and goats passage. It almost seems like one would need to take a full-preterist interpretation of Matthew 25 in order to resolve that. Perhaps there is another way I'm unaware of.

I do think Jesus spoke of eternal life apart from the use of the word aionios:



Jesus used the phrase "never die".

[Homer]

Todd wrote:

You seem to be asking, "where is the promise of living forever?" This is different from eternal life, which is literally translated "the life of the age." The promise of living forever has a different name; it is called immortality. Here are a couple of verses that refer to immortality.

No, I am talking about "eternal" in the true sense of the English word. The question is whether aionios means "eternal" as in almost all translations. You reference immortal which I see as a cognate of eternal. You apparently believe aionios can not mean immortal. Yet you cite a couple passages which indicate we will be immortal in the age to come, and, although there are almost forty references in the New Testament to a future state of eternal (aionios) life, you say this is not the same as immortality. What proof have you of this? By your own argument, If aionios means simply "age" then you must argue that the age to come is temporal rather than eternal to sustain your point.

1 Corinthians 15:50-54 (NKJV)
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

We will inherit the kingdom. This inheritance is a state of incorruption, and also a state of immortality. We are also said to inherit eternal (aionios) life. And you would have us believe these are not all descriptions of one and the same state of being?

[Todd]

No, I am talking about "eternal" in the true sense of the English word. The question is whether aionios means "eternal" as in almost all translations. You reference immortal which I see as a cognate of eternal. You apparently believe aionios can not mean immortal. Yet you cite a couple passages which indicate we will be immortal in the age to come, and, although there are almost forty references in the New Testament to a future state of eternal (aionios) life, you say this is not the same as immortality. What proof have you of this?

Homer,

Why do you suppose the New Testament uses the term "eternal life" forty times, yet Paul, when referring to what we receive in the resurrection, uses the term "immortality"? Also, why do Christians, who have eternal life, die? There seems to be a disconnect there.

By your own argument, If aionios means simply "age" then you must argue that the age to come is temporal rather than eternal to sustain your point.

I am not sure how many ages there are, but from what little information we have of the existence after the resurrection it would seem to be described as un-ending. I'm not sure why my point requires the argument you have proposed.

As I understand the term "eternal life" it literally means "the life of the age". The age in which it applies is the Church Age and this "life" is a special gift made available through the work of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of the faithful. It is not intended to mean "live forever", else Christians would not die and there would be no need for a resurrection.

Todd

[Homer]

Hi Todd,

You wrote:

Why do you suppose the New Testament uses the term "eternal life" forty times, yet Paul, when referring to what we receive in the resurrection, uses the term "immortality"? Also, why do Christians, who have eternal life, die? There seems to be a disconnect there.

I think that perhaps the answer is that we now have eternal life prospectively. We are also said to have an inheritance now and also that we have one in the future. Compare Ephesians 1:11 with Colossians 3:24. How is this to be explained? Think of the teen-aged son of a multi-millionaire. The young man may drive a new car, have fine clothes, and be referred to as a "rich kid", although he actually owns nothing. He has an inheritance prospectively. If we now actually possess eternal life, then the eternal security doctrine is necessarily correct.

You also wrote:

I am not sure how many ages there are, but from what little information we have of the existence after the resurrection it would seem to be described as un-ending. I'm not sure why my point requires the argument you have proposed.

What I am trying to point out is that you have as much as admitted that aionios can mean eternal, forever, unending. That it certainly can mean these things, see the following uses of the adjecive in the scriptures:


Hebrews 13:20 where we find there is an aionios covenant in Christ's blood.

Revelations 14:6 the aionios gospel

Luke 16:9 the aionios dwellings

2 Peter 1:11 Jesus' aionios kingdom

1 Timothy Jesus' aionios dominion

Ephesians 3:11 God's aionios purpose

Hebrews 9:14 the aionios spirit

Hebrews 9:15 the aionios inheritance

Hebrews 9:12 Jesus' aionios redemption

Hebrews 5:9 our aionios salvation

And lastly, I would urge careful reading of 2 Corinthians 4:16-5:4 where Paul contrasts our temporal state with our future (aionios) state. Here in this passage it is clearly seen that aionios refers to an atemporal state of being.

May God bless you Todd, Homer

[Todd]

Homer,

I agree with you that there are some uses for aionios in the New Testament that are intended to mean "without beginning or end."

There is also a theme in the New Testament in which death and life are contrasted in a spiritual way; not referring to physical death and life, rather it refers to a state of existence with death being undesirable and life being that which is perferred.

John 5:24
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.

Rom 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Eph 2:1
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

Col 2:13
And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

This "life" is also referred to as eternal life. To be overcome in sin is death; to have faith in Christ is life. This life is "the life of the age" (eternal life).

Todd

[Todd]

Here is quote from Aaron, who is also a proponent of Ultra-Universalism.

Perhaps the Ultra-Universalist position on "eternal life" would make more sense to you if we started referring to it a bit more accurately. Even Robin Parry himself acknowledged in his book that the Greek expression translated as "eternal life" in most English translations (zoen aionion) "may be better translated as 'the life of the age to come'" (p. 147). I agree with him. Moreover, as I'm sure you're aware, aionios is an adjective form of the Greek noun aion, and means "pertaining to, or belonging to, an age" (again, Parry notes on the same page that "there seems to be a strong case for maintaining that [aionios] means 'pertaining to an age'"). Like all adjectives, aionios cannot pertain to something other than the noun from which it was derived. If the Greek noun aion means "age," then the Greek adjective aionios (and any other derivative of aion) cannot pertain to something other than or greater than an "age." So, the question that should then be asked is, "To what age does the 'life of the age' pertain or belong?" Answer: it can be none other than the age of the Messianic reign, which is the age that began when the age in which Christ and his disciples were living (i.e., the age under the Law of Moses) ended (Matt 24:3; cf. Matt 16:28). It is the age of the Messianic reign that was referred to as "the age to come," and associated with "the life of the age" (Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Heb 6:6; etc.).

And while Parry goes on to say that "the age to come is everlasting" (p. 148), I would argue that, while the kingdom of God is certainly endless, the age during which Christ reigns over the kingdom is not. For we are told by Paul that Christ's reign is in fact to come to an end when (or shortly after) the dead are raised (1 Cor 15:21-28). Just before God becomes "all in all" we are told that Christ is to deliver the kingdom back to God (which he received from the Father at the commencement of his reign). So if Christ's reign over the kingdom is not endless, it follows that the age which, in the NT, is identified with his reign, cannot be endless either. And I submit that the "life" that may be enjoyed by believers during the age of the Messianic reign is a blessing that can only be enjoyed by faith (which includes the obedience that faith produces). This spiritual blessing cannot be enjoyed any longer than the age lasts with which it is so closely associated, nor can it be enjoyed when faith is no longer possible to exercise. This, of course, doesn't mean there will no longer be any more joy or peace or righteousness after the resurrection; it simply means that the enjoyment of these blessings won't be called "the life of the age" any longer, because both the age in which this blessing may be enjoyed, as well as the condition for receiving this blessing, will have ceased to be.

Todd