The Narrow Path Ministries

[I moved this question from the "General Questions" section, because it kind of morphed into a topic on Hell.]

I read this passage yesterday and I saw something I never thought of before, although it may be completely incorrect considering the rest of Scripture on the subject. I should begin by saying I am still contemplating the "three views" of Hell, and I'm still undecided. However, my question is prefaced with the assumption that the conditional immortality view or the universal reconciliation view is correct (this is because my conclusions are impossible in the eternal torment view).

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." (2 Corinthians 5:10, NKJV, emphasis mine)

Here Paul says that "all" must appear before the judgment seat of Christ. It seems clear that 2 Cor. 5:1-8 (the preceding verses regarding the resurrection of believers) is referring to Christians alone. However, verse 11 says: "Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men..."(2 Cor. 5:11a). This seems to be speaking of non-believers since Paul mentions the need to "persuade" men... Now, is Paul referring to unbelievers in verse 11? Or could the "men" being persuaded just refer to Christians who need to 'make it their aim to be pleasing to God' in their life (5:9)?

Paul says here that all will stand before Christ one day, and that each one will receive rewards for the things they've done, whether good or bad. Is Paul making a distinction here? Is he saying "there will be some who receive rewards only for the good they've done (believers) and others (the lost) will receive the rewards only for the bad they've done"? Or is it possible he is saying that every individual will receive both the rewards for the good and bad he has done, respectively? I question the latter interpretation only because it seems bizarre that a Christian would have to suffer a penalty for his own sins (or that there would be some kind of reward for sin other than the due punishment for it), considering that Christ suffered in his or her place. However, when I just read the verse naturally, it seems easiest to understand that there will be rewards for every person on the basis of what they've done, irregardless if they are a Christian or not, and that those rewards will be based on both their good and bad works. If this is true, what does this mean for the Christian? I thought I didn't believe in a purgatory! It doesn't make sense to me. I have heard some teachers (Chuck Missler - http://www.khouse.org/articles/2010/895/) teach that there is a place of purging for the Christian in "outer darkness" (He believes the outer darkness doesn't refer to Hell but rather refers to a place of restorative chastening where weak believers will be re-taught in the things of God and will be further sanctified before entering Heaven), although I have trouble understanding that view. Is there any biblical basis for this? Does this begin to tread into the ballpark of Universalism? I know that Universalists often use 2 Cor. 5:19, which is in this context. But I've always thought that the restorative purging of Hell is only for the unbelievers in the Universalist framework. Are there Universalists who believe that this "restorative purging" will also be the lot of some or all Christians?

The most uncomfortable thing about the more "natural" interpretation I came across is that it seems to indicate a works-based salvation: "If you do more good then bad, you'll still suffer for your bad, but at least it won't be as long.", or vice versa (in the Universalist view). It also seems bizarre that Christians would have to be purged for their own sins in eternity, since Christ has purged them (unless there is no longer any sacrifice for willful transgression after salvation [Heb. 10:26], although I tend to apply that to unbelievers due to the context). I tend to think that Paul was making a distinction that only believers will be rewarded for their good works, and unbelievers will be rewarded for their bad works.

Any thoughts specifically about 2 Cor. 5:10 and the other things I brought up?

If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. 1 Cor. 3:15

What is the suffering loss? A missed opportunity for a reward? Or something else?

What is the fire?

RICHinCHRIST wrote:Are there Universalists who believe that this "restorative purging" will also be the lot of some or all Christians?

RICH,

I also read 2 Cor 5:10 to apply to everyone, both Christians and Non-christians. Consider this verse...

Heb 10:29-31
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The Lord will judge His people." 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

This verse is referring to those who have been sanctified by the blood of Christ (Christians) and it speaks of receiving punishment.

There are [at least] three kinds of Evangelical Universalists.
1. Christian Universalists - who believe that unbelievers will suffer a finite amount of time in hell after the resurrection, and then they are restored.
2. Eastern Orthodox - who believe that everyone goes to the same place in the resurrection, but all receive a different experience in heaven based on their faith or lack thereof in their lifetime.
3. Ultra Universalists - who believe that all judgment and punishment is experienced during one's lifetime. All punishment ends at death. At the resurrection everyone receives a new glorified spiritual body that is no longer capable of sin.

Interpreting 2 Cor 5:10 to apply to everyone fits well into types 2 and 3 listed above.

Todd

Hi Todd,

Thanks for the response. I don't know if I should necessarily refer to 2 Cor. 5:10 as every person. The reason I say this is because Paul says in that verse, "we all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ..." Who is the 'we' he's referring to? Well the first 9 verses of the chapter seem to be talking about only believers. The reason I say this is because unbelievers do not have the Spirit as a guarantee (5:5), and also unbelievers do not walk by faith (5:7). The only reason why I think it might refer to everyone is because verse 11 describes Paul's calling to persuade men. However, Paul does not only persuade unbelievers, but he also persuades believers as well.

Consider:
"Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus." -Colossians 1:28

In the context, Paul is talking about Christians (Christ in you, the hope of glory; Col. 1:27). Paul did not warn those who were only unbelievers, but he also warned those who were in Christ, that he might declare to them the 'whole counsel of God' (Acts 20:27).

This was the first time I actually read 2 Cor. 5:10 and thought of it referring to all people, though. I'm not extremely familiar with the UR view, but thanks for explaining the different subcategories and their interpretations. Another verse in this chapter I have trouble reconciling (no pun intended ) is 2 Cor. 5:14b: "that if One died for all, then all died;". I do believe Christ died for all, but how can I come to the conclusion that every person Christ died for has died to themselves? Practically, it's just not true. Unless it is referring to a future reconciliation, after death, for the unbeliever.

Rich,

Consider these scriptures,

Col 3:23-25
23 And whatsoever ye do , do it heartily , as to the Lord, and not unto men; 24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. 25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done : and there is no respect of persons.

Rom 2:6-11
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious , and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Here we find that God shows no partiality, and that He who does wrong will receive for the wrong done. This applies to everyman the same - Jew, Greek, Christian, non-Christian, believer or not - God rewards all men according to their works whether good or bad. This is a common theme throughout the New Testament. The belief that Christians somehow escape punishment for wrong-doing is not supported in scripture. My personal belief (as an Ultra-Universalist) is that Christians are spared punishment inasmuch as they repent and stop sinning thereby having no wrongs to punish. However I believe that all these punishments are confined to this life.

Todd

Hi Todd,

To be honest, I can see your interpretation in Colossians 3. I guess I have never really considered that before. The context is clearly written to Christians alone.

However, in the verses in Romans 2, I'm not so sure I agree with you. Romans 2:8 starts with the phrase "but unto them", which seems to me indicate a clear distinction. Also, verse 10 starts with a distinction. Could it not be that Paul is describing two camps? 1) Those who seek and pursue for glory and such, and 2) those who obey evil? I've thought of God's "no respect of persons" really referring more to the fact that God doesn't let anyone slide, He'll be completely just; I don't take it necessarily that believers will experience the same wrath as the non-believer.

Todd wrote: My personal belief (as an Ultra-Universalist) is that Christians are spared punishment inasmuch as they repent and stop sinning thereby having no wrongs to punish. However I believe that all these punishments are confined to this life.

I struggle with this view because how can God be completely just and respect no persons if the only punishment received is in this current mortal life? Look at Adolf Hitler. I don't know that much about the man, but I'd assume that he had a pretty comfortable life compared to some suffering Christians in persecuted nations. But they lived righteously and he lived wickedly! This also seems to be one of the lessons of the book of Job: Wicked people often live more prosperously than the righteous.

Also, what if a person sent a nuke into a country and killed millions of people... only to subsequently commit suicide? How will God recompense that evil committed in the final seconds of their life, in which that evil was clearly more than all the evil they had previously committed in their life? Will they just be resurrected and that's it?

Hi Rich (and Todd),
I am following this thread with interest, and I want to contribute, but do not have the time right now, as I am teaching and away from home. I just don't want you to think you two are the only ones paying attention. I will contribute in the next day or two, unless, in the meantime, the discussion gets beyond the point where I would have anything relevant to say.

RICHinCHRIST wrote:However, in the verses in Romans 2, I'm not so sure I agree with you. Romans 2:8 starts with the phrase "but unto them", which seems to me indicate a clear distinction. Also, verse 10 starts with a distinction. Could it not be that Paul is describing two camps? 1) Those who seek and pursue for glory and such, and 2) those who obey evil? I've thought of God's "no respect of persons" really referring more to the fact that God doesn't let anyone slide, He'll be completely just; I don't take it necessarily that believers will experience the same wrath as the non-believer.

Paul is comparing two groups yes. The first group is those who do good; the second is those who do evil. Christians aren't immune to temptation. If a Christian murders someone, God will hold him to account. If a Christian embezzles money from his employer, he will be accountable to God. If a Christian cheats on his wife; he will suffer consequences. God is no respecter of persons; he who does wrong will receive for the wrong. Likewise, he does does good will be rewarded whether he is a Christian or a non-Christian.

RICHinCHRIST wrote:

Todd wrote: My personal belief (as an Ultra-Universalist) is that Christians are spared punishment inasmuch as they repent and stop sinning thereby having no wrongs to punish. However I believe that all these punishments are confined to this life.

I struggle with this view because how can God be completely just and respect no persons if the only punishment received is in this current mortal life? Look at Adolf Hitler. I don't know that much about the man, but I'd assume that he had a pretty comfortable life compared to some suffering Christians in persecuted nations. But they lived righteously and he lived wickedly! This also seems to be one of the lessons of the book of Job: Wicked people often live more prosperously than the righteous.

Also, what if a person sent a nuke into a country and killed millions of people... only to subsequently commit suicide? How will God recompense that evil committed in the final seconds of their life, in which that evil was clearly more than all the evil they had previously committed in their life?

In one sense the rain falls equally upon the just and unjust. It is true that some wicked men find wealth and power. But the question remains, is this what we should strive for? I think not. God blesses people spiritually; namely, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control. Those who know God and act righteously, have a peace which passes understanding and rest well at night free from fear, anxiety, guilt and shame. The same cannot be said for those who do wrong; they have a war within themselves and find no rest or peace, but instead are overcome in condemnation and conviction in their heart. Those who are overcome in sin are subject to the natural consequences of those sins and often fall into extreme corruptions (see Rom 1:18-32). The governing authorities act as God's agent executing wrath against the wrong-doer (see Rom 13:1-4).

I agree that the wake of sin affects more than the sinner himself (Adolf Hitler is a good example). But the affected Christian who was upright in heart lived his life having peace with God.

RICHinCHRIST wrote:Will they just be resurrected and that's it?

Once a person dies his flesh decays and is gone. When Christ returns and the dead are changed and raised incorruptible and immortal, they are no longer flesh and blood beings with all of the frailties, physical needs and desires of the former self (natural man). We are raised as a changed being (praise God!). For those who did not know Christ during their lifetime, they see Him for the first time as who He is - the Savior of the World. It is an epiphany, not a decision to worship Him. Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God, the Father. In the resurrection, all of creation will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into a glorious liberty in Christ (see Rom 8:18-23).


Todd

Here's a quote from a friend of mine regarding this subject.

Aaron wrote:Sin, as I think you'd agree, is mankind's enemy. But it's not the last enemy, for Paul tells us that death is the last enemy. If that's so, then when everyone is raised immortal and death is abolished, sin will have already been taken care of - which means those who are raised from the dead will be sinless. Paul even implies this when, in view of this "last enemy" being "destroyed," he asked rhetorically, "Oh death, where is your sting?" Since he identifies sin as "the sting of death," it is implied that sin will be absent from humanity after all are made immortal (1 Cor 15:54-57).

Todd

Todd wrote: Paul is comparing two groups yes. The first group is those who do good; the second is those who do evil.

What I should have said (to be more clear) is this: When I see that Paul has made a distinction between those who did good, and those who did evil... I ask a question: Why did Paul make this distinction? My answer: Because he is clearly defining categories of summation. There were some who did good, yes. But did they only do good? Of course not! They also did their fair share of evil as well. Now what about the evil group? Did they only do evil? Of course not, I'm sure they had made some moral decisions that God would approve of. But in summation, they are placed in one of those two camps (the latter camp most likely because of their unbelief, primarily). If Paul was trying to say what you think he is saying (which he might be), then why didn't he just say that everyone will receive rewards on the basis of what they did, whether good or bad. Hey! Sounds, like 2 Cor. 5:10! But, it seems to me that 2 Cor. 5:10 may only be speaking of the judgment of believers (refer to my earlier post)...

To conclude, why make a distinction in the first place if there's no reason to? If every person will just get what they deserve, whether good or bad, why make two camps at all? If you read the two camps' descriptions, they are radically opposite. How could someone have sought (in patient continuance; which seems to indicate a lengthy pursuit [Rom. 2:7]) for immortality and glory and honor (the first camp), yet not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness (the second camp)? I think Paul is making an objective conclusion regarding the overall state of the individual's standing with God at the point of death (because the judgment doesn't happen until "the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ..." Romans 2:16 - sounds like this judgment is at the resurrection, on Judgment Day!



You're interpreting "every soul" in Romans 2:9 to refer to every person who has ever existed, but in context it would seem more applicable to interpret "every soul" as just referring to those who are in the second camp of people (the ones who will be judged for their evil). He could be saying "every soul" just to re-emphasize that they all will truly get what they deserve; hence, God is no respecter of persons. I think it would be easier to defend your viewpoint if Paul said "every soul" also in regards to the first camp (those who patiently continued seeking for good)... however, he did not say that. But, even if he did say that, I don't think it would be able to negate the clear distinction Paul is making between the two camps.

RICHinCHRIST wrote:Will they just be resurrected and that's it?

Sorry for the confusion. What I meant was this: "Will they [those who did terrible evils right before committing suicide] be resurrected and receive no further judgment for their sins? How can God justly punish someone if they are not alive to be punished any longer (in your view)? Also, what about the many references to the day of judgment in the Bible? If there's no judging actually happening, but everyone is now "resurrected and at peace with God" what's the point of appointing the Day of Judgment in which God will judge all men by Jesus Christ (Acts 17:31... let alone countless other passages)? It seems clear to me that God will actually judge people after the resurrection, even though sins in this life may bring about a temporary void and a reaping of terrible fruit. Is Adolf Hitler's punishment just that he couldn't sleep at night because he felt bad about his genocides and torturing millions of people? I would think that the man's conscience was so seared that he was hardly moved at all when he heard a Jew shriek in a gas chamber. Was his own misery of a temporal life apart from God enough justice for the millions of lives he stole, not to mention the millions of adherents he brainwashed and the effect it has had on society since?

Also, I should mention I don't think that circumstances of comfort are an indication of God's judgment [referring to my comment earlier regarding Hitler and persecuted Christians]. My only point was that if Hitler received his punishment in this life, it doesn't seem like it was very "punishing" for him considering he was a dictator. Even if his soul was tormented over the evils he did, is that really God's just and holy dealing with the man?