Eternal Torment: why some people reject Christ

[Todd]

I came across this article while doing a google search. To me, it exemplifies why the eternal torment view of hell may be the biggest reason people reject Christ. The person who wrote it seems to have rejected the Gospel based on his objection to the Traditional view of hell. Below is the complete article. Disclaimer: If you read it be prepared to be shocked; it may even make you question your own theology a bit.

Todd

*article deleted*

[steve7150]

Hi Todd,

It's nothing i have not seen many times and from my experience the nature of hell is not a critical factor in whether a person desires to know God which you can only do through Christ.
I think complaints like this about hell or the bible are self justifications to comfort a person about his lack of interest in God. You will find that if you explain that hell may be much kinder and gentler then eternal torment they will usually find another reason to dismiss the God of the bible. The reason IMO is that all this theological stuff is mental ascent and what moves us to make major changes are things that impact our hearts.

[Todd]

Here's another one...

Any View of Hell needs to pass the moral test.
By John W. Loftus

“The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much in the same way as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked; his wrath towards you burns like fire…. You hang by a slender thread, with flames of divine wrath flashing about it and ready every moment to singe it, and burn it asunder…. Consider this, you that yet remain in an unregenerate state. That God will execute the fierceness of his anger, implies, that he will inflict wrath without any pity…you shall be tormented in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb…. There will be no end to this exquisite horrible misery…. So that your punishment will indeed be infinite.” [Jonathan Edwards, “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God”].


The traditional doctrine of hell “is one of the chief grounds on which Christianity is attacked as barbarous and the goodness of God impugned.” [C.S. Lewis The Problem of Pain, “Hell”].

So here’s a question: “What would we think of a human being who satisfied his thirst for revenge so implacably and insatiably?” [Hans Kung, Eternal Life, 1984 (p. 136)]. “If this were true” (i.e., the traditional view) it would make Hitler “a third degree saint, and the concentration camps…a picnic ground.” [Nels Ferre, Christian Understanding of God (p. 540)].

“As the Church’s threat against all sinners and all its enemies, hell serves the holy purpose of cradle to grave intimidation.” [Uta Ranke-Heinemann, Putting Away Childish Things, “Hell].

“The idea that a fully conscious creature would undergo physical and mental torture through endless time is plainly sadistic and therefore incompatible with a God who loves humanity.” “In terms of justice, the traditional view of hell is simply unacceptable. It is a punishment in excess of anything that sinners deserve….Besides, no purpose is served by the unending torture of the wicked except vengeance.” [Clark H. Pinnock & Robert Brown, Unbounded Love, “Hell”].

“Is it not plain that sins committed in time and space cannot deserve limitless divine retribution? Hell is the ultimate big stick to threaten people with…this monstrous belief will cause many people to turn away from Christianity.” (p. 39) “What human crimes could possibly deserve everlasting conscious torture?” (p. 140) “Surely the idea of everlasting conscious torment raises the problem of evil to impossible heights.” (p. 150) Any doctrine of hell needs to pass the moral test….The traditional belief….is unbiblical, is fostered by a Hellenistic view of human nature, is detrimental to the character of God, is defended on essentially pragmatic grounds, and is being rejected by a growing number of biblically faithful, contemporary scholars.” (p. 165) [Clark Pinnock in Four Views of Hell, ed, Wm Crockett, Zondervan, 1992].

Is there anyone out there who still accepts the traditional view of Hell?

Is there any view of hell that has Biblical support and at the same time passes the moral test? Does annihilation? How about death by lethal injection? Limbo and/or Purgatory? What then do you say about all of the carnage of lives who are snuffed out of existence?

[Presuppositionalists, don't even start. If you cannot see that it's plausible that the traditional view of hell is unjust without having an ultimate moral standard, then you're just not thinking].

[Ian]

Having been on the prodigal side of the fence for a long time, though slowly being brought round to the right side, I don`t agree that complaints like this about hell or the bible are self justifications to comfort a person about his lack of interest in God. A person can be very very interested in God and still find all the above a huge stumbling block. The points don`t disprove evangelical Christianity but there is nonetheless a case to be answered. Indeed, why shouldn`t a mother abort her children to save them from hell?
Putting God in the dock? Maybe. But perhaps the questioner above is closer to wanting to believe than most of the rest of the human race who don`t give a monkey about such things.

[steve7150]

Having been on the prodigal side of the fence for a long time, though slowly being brought round to the right side, I don`t agree that complaints like this about hell or the bible are self justifications to comfort a person about his lack of interest in God. A person can be very very interested in God and still find all the above a huge stumbling block






Yes it can be but from my experience if a person has interest in Christ they will generally deal with this issue later. If they use it as the big issue right off the bat then it's usually a rationalization for rejecting Christ , from my own observations.

[Michelle]

Here's another one...

Any View of Hell needs to pass the moral test.
By John W. Loftus

“The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much in the same way as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked; his wrath towards you burns like fire…. You hang by a slender thread, with flames of divine wrath flashing about it and ready every moment to singe it, and burn it asunder…. Consider this, you that yet remain in an unregenerate state. That God will execute the fierceness of his anger, implies, that he will inflict wrath without any pity…you shall be tormented in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb…. There will be no end to this exquisite horrible misery…. So that your punishment will indeed be infinite.” [Jonathan Edwards, “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God”].


The traditional doctrine of hell “is one of the chief grounds on which Christianity is attacked as barbarous and the goodness of God impugned.” [C.S. Lewis The Problem of Pain, “Hell”].

So here’s a question: “What would we think of a human being who satisfied his thirst for revenge so implacably and insatiably?” [Hans Kung, Eternal Life, 1984 (p. 136)]. “If this were true” (i.e., the traditional view) it would make Hitler “a third degree saint, and the concentration camps…a picnic ground.” [Nels Ferre, Christian Understanding of God (p. 540)].

“As the Church’s threat against all sinners and all its enemies, hell serves the holy purpose of cradle to grave intimidation.” [Uta Ranke-Heinemann, Putting Away Childish Things, “Hell].

“The idea that a fully conscious creature would undergo physical and mental torture through endless time is plainly sadistic and therefore incompatible with a God who loves humanity.” “In terms of justice, the traditional view of hell is simply unacceptable. It is a punishment in excess of anything that sinners deserve….Besides, no purpose is served by the unending torture of the wicked except vengeance.” [Clark H. Pinnock & Robert Brown, Unbounded Love, “Hell”].

“Is it not plain that sins committed in time and space cannot deserve limitless divine retribution? Hell is the ultimate big stick to threaten people with…this monstrous belief will cause many people to turn away from Christianity.” (p. 39) “What human crimes could possibly deserve everlasting conscious torture?” (p. 140) “Surely the idea of everlasting conscious torment raises the problem of evil to impossible heights.” (p. 150) Any doctrine of hell needs to pass the moral test….The traditional belief….is unbiblical, is fostered by a Hellenistic view of human nature, is detrimental to the character of God, is defended on essentially pragmatic grounds, and is being rejected by a growing number of biblically faithful, contemporary scholars.” (p. 165) [Clark Pinnock in Four Views of Hell, ed, Wm Crockett, Zondervan, 1992].

Is there anyone out there who still accepts the traditional view of Hell?

Is there any view of hell that has Biblical support and at the same time passes the moral test? Does annihilation? How about death by lethal injection? Limbo and/or Purgatory? What then do you say about all of the carnage of lives who are snuffed out of existence?

[Presuppositionalists, don't even start. If you cannot see that it's plausible that the traditional view of hell is unjust without having an ultimate moral standard, then you're just not thinking].

Todd, I don't know who Dave E. Matson is, but I know John Loftus, and his problems with Christianity are much more complex than not being able to get past the hurdle of the traditional view of hell as eternal torment. Even though eternal torment is not what I've come to believe the bible teaches, I'm convinced that the fate of the unrepentant is not good, so I'm sure Loftus would characterize my belief as not passing the moral test, as well. What do you do with Paul's statement (1 Cor. 1:23) that Christ crucified is a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Greeks? Do you search for ways to get around that message too?

[Todd]

Do you search for ways to get around that message too?

Michelle,

Is that your perception about me? Is that what I'm doing? I just think the Prince of Peace would do violence to no man, neither in this age nor the age to come. Is that so bad?

Matt 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God.

Todd

[Michelle]

Do you search for ways to get around that message too?

Michelle,

Is that your perception about me? Is that what I'm doing? I just think the Prince of Peace would do violence to no man, neither in this age nor the age to come. Is that so bad?

Matt 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God.

Todd

No, that's not really the way I see you, except in this particular thread. This thread kind of blows me away because its intent seems to be to make the case for rejecting the eternal torment view because unbelievers just don't like it, which really doesn't seem like your usual thoughtful discourse. Maybe it's just because you quoted someone I know. Actually, come to think of it, if he's suffering in this life the judgement for his sin and disbelief (which he may very well be, from what I've seen), what difference does it make who believes what about eternal torment? I guess he could be done with his misery, except I know for a fact this isn't the only hurdle he needs to get over on the way to belief.

[steve]

Atheist John Loftus wrote:

I was able to question my Christian faith for the first time once I believed in Conditional Immortality or Annihilationism as the best Biblical description of hell.

He thinks that moving from belief in Eternal Torment to belief in Conditional Immortality is the road toward atheism. I don't see that as true, but it is an interesting position, in light of the thesis that belief in Eternal Torment is the road to atheism.

[Todd]

No, that's not really the way I see you, except in this particular thread. This thread kind of blows me away because its intent seems to be to make the case for rejecting the eternal torment view because unbelievers just don't like it, which really doesn't seem like your usual thoughtful discourse. Maybe it's just because you quoted someone I know. Actually, come to think of it, if he's suffering in this life the judgement for his sin and disbelief (which he may very well be, from what I've seen), what difference does it make who believes what about eternal torment? I guess he could be done with his misery, except I know for a fact this isn't the only hurdle he needs to get over on the way to belief.

I actually wish I had never found that article. I was about to ask the moderators to delete this thread. My apologies for posting it. I'll edit my first post to delete it.

Todd