My Case for eternal Hell
Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 7:58 pm
Sorry if some of this has been well answered, but I don’t have time to read all the past posts.
Does the second death mean non-existence? In scripture, does “death” always mean dead, not living, not existing???
In scripture, “Dead” describes the state of the sinner apart from God.
Eph/2,3:” As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins in which you used to LIVE…” Eph 2/5:”…made ALIVE in Christ even when you were DEAD…” Col 2/13: “When you were DEAD in your sins and uncircumcised in your sinful nature, God made you ALIVE with Christ. He forgave us all our sins”
Notice that being with Christ is life, and without him is called "death". Let me assure you that in these scriptures, Paul is using the word “dead” but talking about people with living bodies and souls.
Death is used to describe sinners separated from God. In the context of the sinner’s relationship with God, “death” does not mean nonexistence.
What does the scripture call the second death? Is it unconsciousness, the end of existence? Rev 20/14 says: “the lake of fire is the second death”. About those tormented there by burning sulfur, Rev 14/11 says that there is “no rest day or night”. In contrast, verse 13 says (just two verses later) that the dead in the Lord will “rest from their labor because their deeds will follow them.” Just as the souls in heaven will be alive to experience rest, the souls being burnt by sulfur are alive to be able to experience no rest. This is a contrast that is not made by mistake. If we believe that the "rest" (consciousness) for the saint is real, why wouldn't we believe that the (consciousness) lack of "rest" for the sinner is just as real? Rev 20/10 confirms that the lake of fire is a place where time passes for the sinner: “day and night” pass by. The Second Death is not the end of time or consciousness for the sinner.
All we need to know to disprove that the second death is nonexistence is that: 1 the sinner is experiencing the passing of time there “day and night” and 2 that he is continuing to experience…something (“no rest”).Yes Revelation has symbolic language. But if we say that “day and night” really means some kind of nonexistence without time…we have gone too far. We would be saying that “day and night” actually means NOTHING. This symbol has to mean some time…not no time. If you do that with symbolic language, you could explain away ALL the symbols of revelation. This also applies if you see revelation as a symbolic drama, you can’t deny the fact that it talks about specific punishments that will be given out to the just and unjust. Even if it is symbolism, we don’t have to resort to relativism.
2 Thess 1/9 says that : the sinner “…will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presents of the lord…” The word destruction here means “complete ruin” . This “ruining” of a man talks about the deconstruction of his purpose, which is eternal communion with his creator. This fits the context of the verse, and what we know about how the sinner is called “dead” while apart from God.
As we know, it is common for the first part of a verse to be repeated only in a different way in the later part of the verse. Ex: Isaiah 53 “We all like sheep have gone astray” (now follows the same idea but repeated in another way)…” each of us has turned to his own way.”
Let’s read 2 Thess 1/9 with this in mind. The sinner “…will pay the penalty of eternal ruin” (now watch for the translation of the first part) ”…away from the presents of the Lord”
If you translate destruction as annihilation, the two parts seem to have nothing to do with each other. The sinner …”will no longer exist….away from the presents of the lord”. ??? If the sinner does not exist , he is not anywhere. Clearly, ruin fits the whole context perfectly and it lines up with the way “dead” is used in regards to the sinner being estranged from God. Death and destruction refer to the sinner’s separation from God.
Someone may say that it is impossible to escape the presence of the Lord and the only way to do so is annihilation. Tell that to the saints of the Old Testament! Would God’s presence dwell in just any temple or tabernacle? No! Even so, God was everywhere…but not accessible to all. In our age, all humans are enjoying the ability to find God and be in his presence anywhere. This is revolutionary if one considers what had to be done to be in Gods presents in the Old Testament. Remember, thoses that are called "dead" on earth, still have the ability to pray and enter God's throne room if they wanted.The door is still open to them, yet they are called "dead" by Paul even though they have the same ability to talk to God as we do. If they are called "dead" now, will they not pass on to another level of "death", a second death, when thay are deprived of this right in hell? In hell, this death would be worse than the first because the sinner will not enjoy the overflow of blessing poured out on the just and will suffer the separation of all things good. This will truly be complete ruin for the sinner.
Seeing how the living sinner with a living soul is called "dead" in regard to his relationship with God, it only follows that passing on to further seperation from God would a "Second Death".
This next verse, in my opinion, does away with universalism
Math 25/46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
How long is the punishment of the wicked?. The punishment of the wicked is contrasted directly with the length of the reward of the just. I know that there is some discussion of the meaning of “eternal”. The discussion about the meaning of eternal in regards to the lost ends here. In this context, eternal means forever, unless you think that we will only be with God for a season and then we will be separated from him. No. This could not be clearer. Jesus does not change the meaning of eternal inside of the same verse.
Some also say that mans soul is not eternal by nature, so it will die. If it is eternal or if it isn’t , that does not present a problem to God. The bible is clear that there is a resurrection of the just and unjust, and after that the judgment. If God resurrects us, this will solve any problem of man not having an eternal soul. I don't see any problem here.
What about repentance after death? Someone said “I would only have to burn for a second and then say…O.K, I repent now.”Wont every knee bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord?
Luke 13/25, 28 “Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside the house pleading, sir open the door for us”….”there will be weeping there and gnashing of teeth.”
Theses people sound repentant and I'm sure that everyone locked out will "bow the knee and say Lord" to try to get the owner to let them in.…but the owner will NOT open the door for them! Remember, Jesus said that many will say "Lord, Lord" but he will say that he does not know them.
Why is this sort of “repentance” not acceptable? In short, this is regret, not repentance.
Would suffering in hell produce true repentance in the sinner? Is God only concerned with the paying for of sins (without regeneration of the spirit) to allow the sinner into heaven? If God is only concerned with the forgiving of sins, every lukewarm Christian in America can expect to enter into eternal life…even if they haven’t been truly born again.
In other words…there are “repented Christians” that go to church because: God will give them riches, it makes them look better politically, there are lots of cute girls in the church, but, I bet there isn’t one Christian on this form that would say that they are saved if their “repentance” is just a means to an end. What makes the man that will ONLY choose God under the WORST conditions any different than the cold Christians we know of that are just using Jesus to make themselves more comfortable.
Why are they not interested in God until he becomes useful to them?.... THEY ARE NOT BORN AGAIN! Jesus said John 3/5: “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the spirit.” Only rebirth guided by the spirit of God will produce what God requires in a man. Jesus said that the spirit would convince the world of sin (so that they could repent). Would we suggest that that a good substitute for the Spirit could have been a flame thrower!?!? Should we start converting by the sword?
When man was tempted by the serpent to sin it wasn’t because he was hungry.No! There was plenty of food in the garden. He believed that he could be like God if he could eat of the fruit (this is key). Romans 1/23 tells us that Man exchanged God for man like idols. Man, driven by sin (without the Spirt) is on a mission to replace God with himself!
The same way that rust is to metal, sin is to God (at least it try’s to be).The unregenerated man is guided by his sin nature to blot God out in every way he can! If man wants to be like God and put himself in God’s place…where would that leave God if man had the power to do this?
I believe that man would kill God if he had the power to do so, and I think there might be an example of this in the bible ( ; . Man hates God, even if he regrets his punishment. The Universalist says that the punishment should only match the amount of sins the sinner has committed. But I am here to say that even if we wiped away all the sins of every sinner…he would still be Gods enemy… precisely because he hasn’t been born again. I used to wonder how it was that God could allow a sinner like me into heaven even though I am no where near perfect. I think the answer is that God can handle our temporal offenses and sins, but if we are not on his side, if we are set against him, and want him done away with…THAT is a whole other problem. A problem that can only be reversed by a changed nature.
All we see in society today is the effort man is making to shut God out from every corner of his mind. The more I think about this…the more it is becoming clear. The mob mentality of man would kill God if he had the power to do it (something about the wickedness of man comes out when he is in a mob) but one human would never kill God if he was in His visible presents …because he does not have the power.
I believe that this is the test of life. God steps back for a season and makes it appear that each person has the power to do with God as he wants. So, man blots God out of his own personal universe to declare himself god. Jesus said that hating your brother is as good as murder, and adultery in the mind as good as doing it outwardly. What about the mental assassination of the God of the universe? If this is our spiritual condition how could you ever try to reduce the eternal implications of it?!? What if God wants to entrust us with power over parts of his kingdom in the next life. Can you see how the sinner’s spiritual state would present a problem at this point if he hasn’t been born again? The recognition of God as King is born from within. Can you see how simply twisting the sinners’ arm to recognize God over himself is oversimplifying the problem?
If a murderer wanted to kill you and take your place…how long should he be locked up for? I would say for as long as he would continue wanting you gone. That would be just, wouldn’t it? Let me ask you something…after Satan has burned the equivalent time in hell that his own sin warrants…should he be let into heaven? I would say no…because he wants God’s place and subtracting the payment of sins will not solve that.
In the courtroom of life, each sinner testifies WITH HIS LIFE that he would de-thrown God if he could and set himself up in Gods place. The man that will only choose God under the worst conditions has proven (testified against himself) that he is as hardened towards God as you can get. If you are waiting for this type of person to TRULY repent (not just regret) don’t hold your breath because you will be waiting an eternity. Remember, that without being born again…sinners are only more hardened, not the other way around. If by nature we want God out, and his grace and beckoning Spirit that we experienced on earth could not convince us to want him, why would you think that anything else (including punishment) could ever be more persuasive than that?
Why wouldn’t God give the sinner the chance to repent on the other side of death? During this life, God creates the illusion that we are in control and that we have options, as if we could reject him and it still go well for us. On the other side of death, there is no other option other than repentance. What’s so impressive if we choose God WHEN THERE IS NO OTHER CHOICE!!! The conditions we repent under say a lot about our love for God. Sure, the gospel gives the threat of hell, but I think that we can all testify that the spirit convinced us of our sins and taught us to love God. The threat of hell didn’t teach us that. Repenting while it still appears you have power over your destiny is a far cry from “repenting” when God has finally backed you against a wall and your only escape is to “repent”. In life the sinner wouldn’t give God the time of day, in death he recognizes God by force…and this supposedly a good thing?
We always use the thief on the cross as our biblical example of a death bed conversion. Some ask why wouldn’t God accept this type of repentance just on the other side of death? After all, this thief just had to ask to go to heaven even though he had never really lived for God. This is deeper than you may know. From what we know, the person nailed to a cross would have been suffocating from the way he was hanging. He had to lift himself to be in the right position to be able to breath. He sacrificed himself and his precious breath to defend Jesus verbally and would have had to fight to be able to do this. What this man did in defense of Christ may well be more than what the average Christian gives of themselves towards the advancement of the kingdom of God in their whole lives. For all we know, this man was a back sliden Jew and followed Jehovah in his youth. What ever was happening in this mans heart was profound and beyond just trying to look out for himself in a selfish way. I do not believe that he was only trying to get a “get out of hell free card”. His self sacrifice testifies against that. Jesus recognized it and told him that he was saved.
Look, I know that we believe that many people have death bed conversions…but based on what we have seen above, we may find that most of those conversions were not genuine. Some say that if someone did not get the chance to convert on their death bed, they should get the chance after this life. If we understand the bible correctly, Pauls says (Acts 17) that God is not far from any of us. God knows our heart and has been trying to draw us with the light of creation and or his Spirit. If someone dies with out the chance to convert on his death bed we would be mistaken to think that God messed up and…”oops, God accidentally let him die, he never really got a true chance to repent.” To think this would be to ignore the fact that God is God and he is working behind the scenes our entire lives. It would be bad to form our theology around the idea that man lives his life with out access to God and what he really needs is a death bed or hell fire experience to be able to repent. God is not far from any man. Man has his whole life to repent. God owes no man a death bed experience after a life of grace and plenty of opportunities. That is good theology in light of the biblical data.
It is said that if the punishment of sin is never finished…God’s will is never done. Maybe his WILL is to match the sinner with punishment, second for second for his rebellion. God’s will would be done in this case and the punishment of such sinners would be justified and even. It is not the case that someone other than God moves in and sends people to hell against Gods will. No! This is God making judgments ACCORDING to his will in response to people who want take Gods place.
Does the second death mean non-existence? In scripture, does “death” always mean dead, not living, not existing???
In scripture, “Dead” describes the state of the sinner apart from God.
Eph/2,3:” As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins in which you used to LIVE…” Eph 2/5:”…made ALIVE in Christ even when you were DEAD…” Col 2/13: “When you were DEAD in your sins and uncircumcised in your sinful nature, God made you ALIVE with Christ. He forgave us all our sins”
Notice that being with Christ is life, and without him is called "death". Let me assure you that in these scriptures, Paul is using the word “dead” but talking about people with living bodies and souls.
Death is used to describe sinners separated from God. In the context of the sinner’s relationship with God, “death” does not mean nonexistence.
What does the scripture call the second death? Is it unconsciousness, the end of existence? Rev 20/14 says: “the lake of fire is the second death”. About those tormented there by burning sulfur, Rev 14/11 says that there is “no rest day or night”. In contrast, verse 13 says (just two verses later) that the dead in the Lord will “rest from their labor because their deeds will follow them.” Just as the souls in heaven will be alive to experience rest, the souls being burnt by sulfur are alive to be able to experience no rest. This is a contrast that is not made by mistake. If we believe that the "rest" (consciousness) for the saint is real, why wouldn't we believe that the (consciousness) lack of "rest" for the sinner is just as real? Rev 20/10 confirms that the lake of fire is a place where time passes for the sinner: “day and night” pass by. The Second Death is not the end of time or consciousness for the sinner.
All we need to know to disprove that the second death is nonexistence is that: 1 the sinner is experiencing the passing of time there “day and night” and 2 that he is continuing to experience…something (“no rest”).Yes Revelation has symbolic language. But if we say that “day and night” really means some kind of nonexistence without time…we have gone too far. We would be saying that “day and night” actually means NOTHING. This symbol has to mean some time…not no time. If you do that with symbolic language, you could explain away ALL the symbols of revelation. This also applies if you see revelation as a symbolic drama, you can’t deny the fact that it talks about specific punishments that will be given out to the just and unjust. Even if it is symbolism, we don’t have to resort to relativism.
2 Thess 1/9 says that : the sinner “…will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presents of the lord…” The word destruction here means “complete ruin” . This “ruining” of a man talks about the deconstruction of his purpose, which is eternal communion with his creator. This fits the context of the verse, and what we know about how the sinner is called “dead” while apart from God.
As we know, it is common for the first part of a verse to be repeated only in a different way in the later part of the verse. Ex: Isaiah 53 “We all like sheep have gone astray” (now follows the same idea but repeated in another way)…” each of us has turned to his own way.”
Let’s read 2 Thess 1/9 with this in mind. The sinner “…will pay the penalty of eternal ruin” (now watch for the translation of the first part) ”…away from the presents of the Lord”
If you translate destruction as annihilation, the two parts seem to have nothing to do with each other. The sinner …”will no longer exist….away from the presents of the lord”. ??? If the sinner does not exist , he is not anywhere. Clearly, ruin fits the whole context perfectly and it lines up with the way “dead” is used in regards to the sinner being estranged from God. Death and destruction refer to the sinner’s separation from God.
Someone may say that it is impossible to escape the presence of the Lord and the only way to do so is annihilation. Tell that to the saints of the Old Testament! Would God’s presence dwell in just any temple or tabernacle? No! Even so, God was everywhere…but not accessible to all. In our age, all humans are enjoying the ability to find God and be in his presence anywhere. This is revolutionary if one considers what had to be done to be in Gods presents in the Old Testament. Remember, thoses that are called "dead" on earth, still have the ability to pray and enter God's throne room if they wanted.The door is still open to them, yet they are called "dead" by Paul even though they have the same ability to talk to God as we do. If they are called "dead" now, will they not pass on to another level of "death", a second death, when thay are deprived of this right in hell? In hell, this death would be worse than the first because the sinner will not enjoy the overflow of blessing poured out on the just and will suffer the separation of all things good. This will truly be complete ruin for the sinner.
Seeing how the living sinner with a living soul is called "dead" in regard to his relationship with God, it only follows that passing on to further seperation from God would a "Second Death".
This next verse, in my opinion, does away with universalism
Math 25/46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
How long is the punishment of the wicked?. The punishment of the wicked is contrasted directly with the length of the reward of the just. I know that there is some discussion of the meaning of “eternal”. The discussion about the meaning of eternal in regards to the lost ends here. In this context, eternal means forever, unless you think that we will only be with God for a season and then we will be separated from him. No. This could not be clearer. Jesus does not change the meaning of eternal inside of the same verse.
Some also say that mans soul is not eternal by nature, so it will die. If it is eternal or if it isn’t , that does not present a problem to God. The bible is clear that there is a resurrection of the just and unjust, and after that the judgment. If God resurrects us, this will solve any problem of man not having an eternal soul. I don't see any problem here.
What about repentance after death? Someone said “I would only have to burn for a second and then say…O.K, I repent now.”Wont every knee bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord?
Luke 13/25, 28 “Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside the house pleading, sir open the door for us”….”there will be weeping there and gnashing of teeth.”
Theses people sound repentant and I'm sure that everyone locked out will "bow the knee and say Lord" to try to get the owner to let them in.…but the owner will NOT open the door for them! Remember, Jesus said that many will say "Lord, Lord" but he will say that he does not know them.
Why is this sort of “repentance” not acceptable? In short, this is regret, not repentance.
Would suffering in hell produce true repentance in the sinner? Is God only concerned with the paying for of sins (without regeneration of the spirit) to allow the sinner into heaven? If God is only concerned with the forgiving of sins, every lukewarm Christian in America can expect to enter into eternal life…even if they haven’t been truly born again.
In other words…there are “repented Christians” that go to church because: God will give them riches, it makes them look better politically, there are lots of cute girls in the church, but, I bet there isn’t one Christian on this form that would say that they are saved if their “repentance” is just a means to an end. What makes the man that will ONLY choose God under the WORST conditions any different than the cold Christians we know of that are just using Jesus to make themselves more comfortable.
Why are they not interested in God until he becomes useful to them?.... THEY ARE NOT BORN AGAIN! Jesus said John 3/5: “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the spirit.” Only rebirth guided by the spirit of God will produce what God requires in a man. Jesus said that the spirit would convince the world of sin (so that they could repent). Would we suggest that that a good substitute for the Spirit could have been a flame thrower!?!? Should we start converting by the sword?
When man was tempted by the serpent to sin it wasn’t because he was hungry.No! There was plenty of food in the garden. He believed that he could be like God if he could eat of the fruit (this is key). Romans 1/23 tells us that Man exchanged God for man like idols. Man, driven by sin (without the Spirt) is on a mission to replace God with himself!
The same way that rust is to metal, sin is to God (at least it try’s to be).The unregenerated man is guided by his sin nature to blot God out in every way he can! If man wants to be like God and put himself in God’s place…where would that leave God if man had the power to do this?
I believe that man would kill God if he had the power to do so, and I think there might be an example of this in the bible ( ; . Man hates God, even if he regrets his punishment. The Universalist says that the punishment should only match the amount of sins the sinner has committed. But I am here to say that even if we wiped away all the sins of every sinner…he would still be Gods enemy… precisely because he hasn’t been born again. I used to wonder how it was that God could allow a sinner like me into heaven even though I am no where near perfect. I think the answer is that God can handle our temporal offenses and sins, but if we are not on his side, if we are set against him, and want him done away with…THAT is a whole other problem. A problem that can only be reversed by a changed nature.
All we see in society today is the effort man is making to shut God out from every corner of his mind. The more I think about this…the more it is becoming clear. The mob mentality of man would kill God if he had the power to do it (something about the wickedness of man comes out when he is in a mob) but one human would never kill God if he was in His visible presents …because he does not have the power.
I believe that this is the test of life. God steps back for a season and makes it appear that each person has the power to do with God as he wants. So, man blots God out of his own personal universe to declare himself god. Jesus said that hating your brother is as good as murder, and adultery in the mind as good as doing it outwardly. What about the mental assassination of the God of the universe? If this is our spiritual condition how could you ever try to reduce the eternal implications of it?!? What if God wants to entrust us with power over parts of his kingdom in the next life. Can you see how the sinner’s spiritual state would present a problem at this point if he hasn’t been born again? The recognition of God as King is born from within. Can you see how simply twisting the sinners’ arm to recognize God over himself is oversimplifying the problem?
If a murderer wanted to kill you and take your place…how long should he be locked up for? I would say for as long as he would continue wanting you gone. That would be just, wouldn’t it? Let me ask you something…after Satan has burned the equivalent time in hell that his own sin warrants…should he be let into heaven? I would say no…because he wants God’s place and subtracting the payment of sins will not solve that.
In the courtroom of life, each sinner testifies WITH HIS LIFE that he would de-thrown God if he could and set himself up in Gods place. The man that will only choose God under the worst conditions has proven (testified against himself) that he is as hardened towards God as you can get. If you are waiting for this type of person to TRULY repent (not just regret) don’t hold your breath because you will be waiting an eternity. Remember, that without being born again…sinners are only more hardened, not the other way around. If by nature we want God out, and his grace and beckoning Spirit that we experienced on earth could not convince us to want him, why would you think that anything else (including punishment) could ever be more persuasive than that?
Why wouldn’t God give the sinner the chance to repent on the other side of death? During this life, God creates the illusion that we are in control and that we have options, as if we could reject him and it still go well for us. On the other side of death, there is no other option other than repentance. What’s so impressive if we choose God WHEN THERE IS NO OTHER CHOICE!!! The conditions we repent under say a lot about our love for God. Sure, the gospel gives the threat of hell, but I think that we can all testify that the spirit convinced us of our sins and taught us to love God. The threat of hell didn’t teach us that. Repenting while it still appears you have power over your destiny is a far cry from “repenting” when God has finally backed you against a wall and your only escape is to “repent”. In life the sinner wouldn’t give God the time of day, in death he recognizes God by force…and this supposedly a good thing?
We always use the thief on the cross as our biblical example of a death bed conversion. Some ask why wouldn’t God accept this type of repentance just on the other side of death? After all, this thief just had to ask to go to heaven even though he had never really lived for God. This is deeper than you may know. From what we know, the person nailed to a cross would have been suffocating from the way he was hanging. He had to lift himself to be in the right position to be able to breath. He sacrificed himself and his precious breath to defend Jesus verbally and would have had to fight to be able to do this. What this man did in defense of Christ may well be more than what the average Christian gives of themselves towards the advancement of the kingdom of God in their whole lives. For all we know, this man was a back sliden Jew and followed Jehovah in his youth. What ever was happening in this mans heart was profound and beyond just trying to look out for himself in a selfish way. I do not believe that he was only trying to get a “get out of hell free card”. His self sacrifice testifies against that. Jesus recognized it and told him that he was saved.
Look, I know that we believe that many people have death bed conversions…but based on what we have seen above, we may find that most of those conversions were not genuine. Some say that if someone did not get the chance to convert on their death bed, they should get the chance after this life. If we understand the bible correctly, Pauls says (Acts 17) that God is not far from any of us. God knows our heart and has been trying to draw us with the light of creation and or his Spirit. If someone dies with out the chance to convert on his death bed we would be mistaken to think that God messed up and…”oops, God accidentally let him die, he never really got a true chance to repent.” To think this would be to ignore the fact that God is God and he is working behind the scenes our entire lives. It would be bad to form our theology around the idea that man lives his life with out access to God and what he really needs is a death bed or hell fire experience to be able to repent. God is not far from any man. Man has his whole life to repent. God owes no man a death bed experience after a life of grace and plenty of opportunities. That is good theology in light of the biblical data.
It is said that if the punishment of sin is never finished…God’s will is never done. Maybe his WILL is to match the sinner with punishment, second for second for his rebellion. God’s will would be done in this case and the punishment of such sinners would be justified and even. It is not the case that someone other than God moves in and sends people to hell against Gods will. No! This is God making judgments ACCORDING to his will in response to people who want take Gods place.