While doing a google search on the term "no hellers" (thanks, Homer), I came across some information on the Primative Baptist Universalists which are sometimes referred to as no hellers. I ordered a book entitled, In the Hands of a Happy God: The "No-Hellers" of Central Appalachia, which I hope will give me more information on this group. From the little I know so far, this group's beliefs are very close to mine. Here are some of the beliefs which are held by this group.
-PBU’s believe that hell does exist, but as a temporal-world condition rather than an afterlife place. They believe one’s punishment for sin takes place in this present life, and that one will follow God because it is joyous to do so, not because of a fear of an eternal punishment in the afterlife.
-Christ’s atonement was for all humankind and at Resurrection will irrevocably come to pass for all humankind; just as, irrevocably, Adam’s transgression earlier had condemned all to the sinful state of natural man.
-Satan is an entity solely of the temporal world, existing only as "natural man" warring against "spiritual man."
-There is an ‘elect,’ Christ’s church which has been ‘separated from the rest of God’s people here in time,’ chosen to be a witness for Christ and an earthly preserver of his righteousness, and ‘kept by the power of God through faith,’ never finally to fall away.
-PBU’s believe that at the resurrection, all sin will end, the judgment (or sentence upon humans) will end, punishment (the hell on earth) will end, and death (the ultimate punishment for Adamic sin) will end. All are then saved through the work of Christ.
Todd
Primative Baptist Universalists - PBU
Re: Primative Baptist Universalists - PBU
I have begun to read the book that I mentioned in my previous post. In chapter four the author gives some detail about what he calls, "the ten basic tenants of PBU theology." After reading through these, I find that my beliefs are in agreement with some, but not all, of these tenants. Here they are for your information.
The Ten Tenants of PBU Theology
1. Because of Adam's sin, all humankind is inherently sinful; therefore, "sinfulness" is the given characteristic of "natural man."
2. Indeed, Satan is nothing more than "natural man," warring against "spiritual man," and thus will have no existence beyond the temporal world.
3. In addition to the creation of "sinfulness" (the given nature of natural man), this Adamic transgression also instituted "punishment" (the "general judgment" hell of the temporal world; the absence-from-God's-blessing torment that sin generates) and "death" (humankind's ultimate punishment for Adamic sin).
4. Humankind cannot extricate itself from this natural sin-state and so requires Christ's atonement.
5. That atonement, nevertheless, is for all humankind and at "Resurrection" irrevocably will come to pass for all humankind, just as irrevocably Adam's transgression earlier condemned all humankind to that sinful state of "natural man."
6. However, there is the "elect," Christ's church, that has been "separated from the rest of God's people here in time," chosen to be the earthly witness for Christ and the earthly preserver of his righteousness, "kept by the power of God through faith," and destined never finally to fall away.
7. Still, these elected individuals can sin, and in doing so suffer the hell on earth that a separation from God's blessing institutes, probably feeling that hell more intensely than the nonelect, simply because the elect have a sharply contrasting experience as a basis for comparison.
8. At "Resurrection," however, all temporal existence will terminate, both for the dead and for those still living, bringing an end to all "sin," "punishment," and "death."
9. Finally, at Resurrection, all humankind will go to a wholly egalitarian heaven, the culmination of Christ's universal atonement.
10. Since punishment is a factor solely of the temporal world, there will be no hell after Resurrection.
Todd
The Ten Tenants of PBU Theology
1. Because of Adam's sin, all humankind is inherently sinful; therefore, "sinfulness" is the given characteristic of "natural man."
2. Indeed, Satan is nothing more than "natural man," warring against "spiritual man," and thus will have no existence beyond the temporal world.
3. In addition to the creation of "sinfulness" (the given nature of natural man), this Adamic transgression also instituted "punishment" (the "general judgment" hell of the temporal world; the absence-from-God's-blessing torment that sin generates) and "death" (humankind's ultimate punishment for Adamic sin).
4. Humankind cannot extricate itself from this natural sin-state and so requires Christ's atonement.
5. That atonement, nevertheless, is for all humankind and at "Resurrection" irrevocably will come to pass for all humankind, just as irrevocably Adam's transgression earlier condemned all humankind to that sinful state of "natural man."
6. However, there is the "elect," Christ's church, that has been "separated from the rest of God's people here in time," chosen to be the earthly witness for Christ and the earthly preserver of his righteousness, "kept by the power of God through faith," and destined never finally to fall away.
7. Still, these elected individuals can sin, and in doing so suffer the hell on earth that a separation from God's blessing institutes, probably feeling that hell more intensely than the nonelect, simply because the elect have a sharply contrasting experience as a basis for comparison.
8. At "Resurrection," however, all temporal existence will terminate, both for the dead and for those still living, bringing an end to all "sin," "punishment," and "death."
9. Finally, at Resurrection, all humankind will go to a wholly egalitarian heaven, the culmination of Christ's universal atonement.
10. Since punishment is a factor solely of the temporal world, there will be no hell after Resurrection.
Todd
Re: Primative Baptist Universalists - PBU
Hi Todd,
Does this book on the PBU provide any information regarding whether the PBU is an offshoot from the Primative Baptists? It sounds like they are, which would not be surprising since Primative Baptists are highly Calvinistic and both groups are deterministic.
Blessings, Homer
Does this book on the PBU provide any information regarding whether the PBU is an offshoot from the Primative Baptists? It sounds like they are, which would not be surprising since Primative Baptists are highly Calvinistic and both groups are deterministic.
Blessings, Homer
Re: Primative Baptist Universalists - PBU
Homer,Homer wrote:Hi Todd,
Does this book on the PBU provide any information regarding whether the PBU is an offshoot from the Primative Baptists? It sounds like they are, which would not be surprising since Primative Baptists are highly Calvinistic and both groups are deterministic.
Blessings, Homer
Yes, this book goes into great detail about the origins of the PBU. They were disfellowshipped from the "hellers" in the early 20th century. Their belief of the "elect" as described in the 6th tenant is very Calvanist-like. This is one of the tenants with which I disagree.
Todd
Re: Primative Baptist Universalists - PBU
Thanks for the reply Todd. I do not know if I have mentioned this before, but I commend you for your gentle spirit! You are an example to all of us.
Re: Primative Baptist Universalists - PBU
Universalists which are sometimes referred to as no hellers. I ordered a book entitled, In the Hands of a Happy God: The "No-Hellers" of Central Appalachia, which I hope will give me more information on this group. From the little I know so far, this group's beliefs are very close to mine. Here are some of the beliefs which are held by this group.
If you lived in central Appalachia you might also think that hell is on earth.
Just kidding, sorry could'nt resist.
If you lived in central Appalachia you might also think that hell is on earth.
Just kidding, sorry could'nt resist.
Re: Primative Baptist Universalists - PBU
Homer,
I have been doing more research and discovered that in the early 19th century there was a large group of universalists who believed as I do that there is no post-mortem punishment for anyone. This group was called Ultra-Universalists and there were many debates during that time period. One of the leaders of the Ultra-Universalists was Hosea Ballou. I am currently reading his book, A Treatise on Attonement. I'm about 40% through the book and, so far, my views align with his.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hosea_Ballou
Todd
I have been doing more research and discovered that in the early 19th century there was a large group of universalists who believed as I do that there is no post-mortem punishment for anyone. This group was called Ultra-Universalists and there were many debates during that time period. One of the leaders of the Ultra-Universalists was Hosea Ballou. I am currently reading his book, A Treatise on Attonement. I'm about 40% through the book and, so far, my views align with his.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hosea_Ballou
Todd
Re: Primative Baptist Universalists - PBU
Hi Todd,
I had read of Hosea Ballou before. The universalists, as you probably know, were very prominent in the 19th century. It seems odd that today many universalists will argue that eternal punishment is disproportionate to the sins committed while believing in a "hell on steroids" of the most awful sort, but only that it is not permanent.
God bless, Homer
I had read of Hosea Ballou before. The universalists, as you probably know, were very prominent in the 19th century. It seems odd that today many universalists will argue that eternal punishment is disproportionate to the sins committed while believing in a "hell on steroids" of the most awful sort, but only that it is not permanent.
God bless, Homer
Re: Primative Baptist Universalists - PBU
I think that too, Homer. But it does make me wonder whether we mould our theology according to our temperament. Look at hyper-Calvinist Fred Phelps at the other extreme, brandishing every threatening text he can lay his vicious hands on. And yet both Todd and Fred Phelps supposedly fall under the same umbrella of Christendom. It does rather make me question with Pilate, "what is truth?" I hope Todd is right, but I don`t know.I commend you for your gentle spirit! You are an example to all of us
Re: Primative Baptist Universalists - PBU
Hi Ian,
You wrote:
Blessings, Homer
You wrote:
I do not know anything about Fred Phelps; perhaps in spite of his mistaken (to my mind) theology he may truly love his brother as Jesus taught. I am not surprised that there are a wide variety of people who are Christians. It is amazing, and something of a miracle, I think, that Jesus put that band of 12 disciples together. Who would have thought that he would have picked Matthew, the tax collector, and Simon the Zealot to be together? Before he knew Jesus, Simon would probably have been glad to take Peter's head off.And yet both Todd and Fred Phelps supposedly fall under the same umbrella of Christendom.
Blessings, Homer