The Narrow Path Ministries

Back on Dec. 7 Paidion wrote:

"Aidios", the true Greek word for "eternal" as in "His eternal power and Deity" means "unending". However, "aionios" as in "aeonion life" (John 17:3) means "life which goes from age to age".

Which would then seem to necessitate that "eternal (aionios) punishment" is a punishment or, alternatively, punishing, which goes from age to age.

Since in Matthew 25 both the life and punishment are said to be aionios, and thus of the same age to age duration, would this not necessitate that those being punished, or whatever it is imagined to be, would be there from age to age, and thus all be there together until this supposed second of the two ages begins? Where does the universalist find that there is any variation in the time it takes to spring someone from hell (or whatever it is imagined to be)?

Not that I am buying Paidion's definition of aionios.

Thanks, Homer. Actually, I'm not buying my own definition any more. Since that time I've investigated many instances of the Greek word "αιωνιος", including classical Greek references in secular literature. I am now convinced that the best translation of the word is "lasting" or perhaps "enduring". In classical Greek the word has been used of a stone wall which is said to be "αιωνιος". Such a wall would hardly last even one age, let alone last "from age to age".

Largely as a result of this recent enlightenment, I would now translate Matthew 25:46 as:

And they will go away into lasting correction,but the righteous into lasting life.

Paidion,

I was confident you would not be stumped - not even by yourself! Even though I do not agree with it, your translation makes sense. Picked up a nice copy of "A Greek-English Lexicon" by Arndt & Gingrich yerterday at a garage sale for $1.00! And even better, they agree with me (or is it I agree with them?).

I think those Greeks meant that stone wall would last forever (figuratively).

God bless, Homer

Paidion wrote:Largely as a result of this recent enlightenment, I would now translate Matthew 25:46 as:

And they will go away into lasting correction,but the righteous into lasting life.

I believe that the more appropriate understanding of this passage would sound something like this....

And they will go away into divine judgment, but the righteous into divinely [inspired] life.

I don't think this use of eternal was meant to describe a length of time; rather, it describes the source (God) of the correction/life.

Todd

Since in Matthew 25 both the life and punishment are said to be aionios, and thus of the same age to age duration, would this not necessitate that those being punished, or whatever it is imagined to be, would be there from age to age,





The saved already have immortality therefore the life they have would probably not be described by a length of time but by a quality otherwise the description would be at best redundant and perhaps contradictory.
Therefore i agree with Todd on this.

Homer wrote:I think those Greeks meant that stone wall would last forever (figuratively).

Here is the actual quote:

The second wall is in all other respects like the first but of twice the height. The third circuit is rectangular in plan and is sixty cubits in height, built of a stone, hard and naturally αιωνιος. (Diodorus Siculus, Library, book 17, chapter 71 section 5).

"Naturally eternal"??? This just doesn't sound as if the author were using the word figuratively.

What about the following one from Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book 6, Section 434?

... Jonathan condemned to αιωνιος imprisonment. That imprisonment was for a period of three years. Was Josephus speaking figuratively? I suppose it is possible.

Then we have this passage from Psalm 77:5 as translated from the Septuagint:

I thought about ancient days and remembered αιωνιος years.

How could the psalmist have remembered "eternal" years ... years that were already in the past? It seems to be stretching it quite a bit to say that he was speaking figuratively.

And this passage from Isaiah 61:4 (Septuagint)

And they shall build the αιωνιος ruins; they shall raise up those that were before made desolate, and shall renew the desert cities, even those that had been desolate for many generations.

Having been desolate for many generations is hardly "eternal". But again you can claim that the translators were using "αιωνιος" figuratively.

Homer, for some time I had become rather frustrated in realizing that no matter how many quotations I bring forward to show that "αιωνιος" does not mean "eternal", you always dismiss them with the claim that the word was used figuratively.

The Perseus Library which specializes in the classics (including the classic languages) affirms that "αιωνιος" means "lasting for an age". See for yourself:

αιωνιος

It seems that an "αιων" (aeon or age) can be or short or long duration.

Recently I have come across the use of "αιωνιος" in a passage from Chrysostum (A.D. 347-407) against which it is impossible to explain away its usage as figurative. It is clear from this passage that Chrysostum understood the word to mean "lasting for an age" (exactly what the Perseus Library states). The passage is from Chrysostum's Homily of the Epistle of Saint Paul to the Ephesians, Homily 4:

Here again he means, that Satan occupies the space under Heaven, and that the incorporeal powers are spirits of the air, under his operation. For that his kingdom is αιωνιος, in other words that it will cease with the present age, hear what he says at the end of the Epistle."

Hello Bro Paidion!

As you must know words are often used in a non-literal sense, or as figures of speech. And then, there is the idiomatic use of words.

You wrote:

Homer, for some time I had become rather frustrated in realizing that no matter how many quotations I bring forward to show that "αιωνιος" does not mean "eternal", you always dismiss them with the claim that the word was used figuratively.

My Websters gives the following definition of "eternal":

1a: having infinite duration: EVERLASTING
b: of or relating to eternity
c: characterized by abiding fellowship with God
2: infinite time

Using your method, I will now prove that Webster is wrong, as you prove all the best lexicons are wrong about aionios. Seaching the web, I found the following uses of "eternal":

"The Caribbean is home to many powdery beaches, eternal sunshine, and sparkling aquamarine waters..."

"I was warned about November - the month of the eternal rain, wind and lack of sunshine."

"The eternal drought: south Florida will never win"

Ipso facto "eternal" means a limited period of time!


You also wrote:

What about the following one from Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book 6, Section 434?

... Jonathan condemned to αιωνιος imprisonment. That imprisonment was for a period of three years. Was Josephus speaking figuratively? I suppose it is possible.

Regarding the imprisonment of Jonathan, consider the following explanation:

Josephus says:

ἐφυλάχθη δ᾽ ὁ μὲν [i.e. Simon] τῷ θριάμβῳ σφάγιον, ὁ δ᾽ Ἰωάννης δεσμοῖς αἰωνίοις.

"... the latter [i.e. Simon] was reserved for execution at the triumph, while John was sentenced to perpetual imprisonment." (Tr. by Thackeray, 1926.)

This is talking about the capture of Jerusalem by Titus, and the sentencing of John and Simon, the leaders of the revolt. In the next book (7.118), Josephus tells how both John and Simon are taken to Italy for the triumph; he describes the execution of Simon, but as far as I can tell from a quick overview, he doesn't say what happens to John.

In any case, the source of your quote is a bit misleading. "(for three years)" is an explanatory gloss that your source has added; it's not part of Josephus' text. From other documentation, it may be true that John's imprisonment turned out to last only three years. But as Josephus presents it, at the time of sentencing it was intended to be αἰώνιος, "perpetual."

You brought up Chrysostom. He is decidedly against you. In his commentary on Romans he wrote:

But the case is not so with the other life. For that there, there will never be any release, hear from His own mouth "Their worm will not die nor will their fire be quenched". (Mark ix. 44) And "these shall go away into everlasting life, but these into everlasting punishment." (Matthew 25:46) Now if the life is eternal, the punishment is eternal.

Now what could he have thought of the meaning of aionios? Which place do you think he used it literally, and which was a figure of speech?


You are fond of the early church fathers (or perhaps, not real early). What do you think Ignateus thought aionios meant?


from Ignatius (translation can be found at http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ante-Nice ... Chapter_XI.)

φεύγετε καὶ τὰ τοῦ πονηροῦ ἔγγονα Θεόδοτον καὶ Κλεόβουλον, τὰ γεννῶντα καρπὸν θανατηφόρον, οὗ ἐάν τις γεύσηται, παραυτίκα ἀποθνήσκει οὐ τὸν πρόσκαιρον θάνατον, ἀλλὰ τὸν αἰώνιον.

"dies not the temporary death but the aionios death"


http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf111 ... i-Page_525


God bless, Homer

Homer, you wrote:My Websters gives the following definition of "eternal":

Webster's definition of "eternal", and whether or not it can be used figuratively, doesn't address the discussion at hand.

We are trying to determine the meaning of "αιωνιος". You claim it always means "eternal", but is used figuratively every time it refers to anything which is not eternal. I claim it means "lasting for an age" or simply "lasting" and that it sometimes refers to that which happens to be eternal, though "eternal" is not inherent in the word itself.

I have attempted to put forward many times that various authors in the Hellenistic Greek period (300 B.C. to 300 A.D) used it in a way where it could not possibly mean "eternal". But you simply claim ALL of my examples to be figurative. Tell me something, Homer. Just suppose for a moment I were right about "αιωνιος". Theoretically, what evidence could I possible bring forth which would convince you?

You are fond of the early church fathers (or perhaps, not real early). What do you think Ignateus thought aionios meant?

How fond I am of the church fathers, early or late, is irrelevant. I was quoting passages from ANY Greek writers to show how "αιωνιος" is normally used. I totally disagree with the gnostics of the first and second century, but I would not hesitate to quote their use of "αιωνιος" in order to illustrate the true meaning of the word.

You brought up Chrysostom.

I did much more than mention him. I showed clearly a passage in which Chrysostom INDICATED THE MEANING OF THE WORD "αιωνιος". You were unable to deny this fact, and so you hinted that he used it figuratively even in that passage, but that is IMPOSSIBLE. And so you quoted another passage of his of which you SUPPOSE the meaning "eternal." I would like to deal with this more thoroughly after looking at the passage for myself, but I cannot find it simply by glancing through his 32 homilies on the book of Romans, and there is no search function. So could you please be specific as to where this passage is found, or even which homily?

I have to leave immediately to pick up one of my dogs at the vet's, 37 miles away. However, at the earliest opportunity, I want to address the passage from Ignatius.

May the enabling grace of Christ be with us all!

Hi Paidion,

To see the Chrysostom quote, go here:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf111

Click on "Read Online", then go down to "Romans", then to homily XXV 1,2, & then down to p. 527.

God bless, Homer

While there is a momentary pause in this excellent discussion, I just want to through into the mix that I prefer the definition of aionios suggested by Milligan & Moulton in their Vocabulary of the Greek Testament, which is: 'A state wherein the horizon is not in view.'