The Narrow Path Ministries

My question (which has probably been asked a million time, but I want to start a fresh thread) is: how do you reconcile Matt 12:32?

Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt 12:32)

Also:

Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. (Mat 7:13-14)

RV wrote:My question (which has probably been asked a million time, but I want to start a fresh thread) is: how do you reconcile Matt 12:32?

I am assuming you mean how can Matt 12:32 be reconciled with the position of the universal reconciliation of all to God. Because "universalism" in our day often refers to the position that every one will automatically be with God forever, whether he repents or not, I don't personally identify with the term or accept the appellation "universalist".

Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt 12:32)

Our Lord made this statement in the context of the Pharisees saying that He cast out demons through the prince of demons. However, the fact is that our Lord cast out demons through the Holy Spirit. So the Pharisees were blaspheming against the Holy Spirit. To attribute the working of the Spirit to demons is a mind set which tends to be permanent and unchangeable. However, this passage does not mean that such a person has no hope for a future repentance and forgiveness under the severe discipline of Gehenna (unless one assumes that "the age to come" means "eternity")

Also:

Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. (Mat 7:13-14)

Yes indeed, there are few who will enter life in the first resurrection when Jesus returns, in my opinion, fewer than one tenth of one percent of all people. They are those who are on the narrow path, and remain on it or get back onto it before death. The rest are on the road that leads to destruction. "Destruction" does not mean "annihilation".

I invite you to consider how “destroy” is sometimes used in the scriptures as shown in the following passage from I Peter 1:3-7

Praise be the God and Father of the Anointed Lord Jesus, who, in keeping with His great mercy has regenerated us for the purpose of a living hope, through the resurrection of the Anointed Jesus from the dead, into an incorruptible and undefiled inheritance reserved in heaven for you, who, by the power of God are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed at the last time. In this you exult, yet for a little while, if necessary, grieving in various trials in order that the testing of you of the faith, very valuable, gold being destroyed through fire, yet being tested, may be found for praise and glory and honour at the revealing of Jesus the Anointed.

Peter compared the testing of his readers' faith to gold being destroyed by fire. Now we all know that pure gold cannot be destroyed by fire. It can be melted, but cannot be destroyed (in the usual sense of the word). What then, did Peter mean? Did he not mean that gold in its original form (gold ore) can be destroyed by fire so that the pure gold can come forth? Was he not referring to the refining process? When we undergo various trials, our character can be refined. Our faith can be tested; it can "go through the fire", but not be destroyed by the fire, but refined.

But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner‘s fire and like fullers’ soap. Malachi 3:2 RSV

Both fire and soap can purify. That is what the Lord can do for a person, and sometimes He does it through trials.

Someone may object that some translations refer to gold as being “perishable” in I Peter 3:7, and again in verse 18, where Peter clearly speaks of gold being perishable.

1 Peter 1:18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers.

However,Peter used a different word from that which he used in verse 7. The word is better translated as “corruptible”. The Greek word is the adjective “phthartos” which is derived from the verb “phtheirō”. The Online Bible Lexicon gives the following note for the latter word:

In the opinion of the Jews, the temple was corrupted or "destroyed" when anyone defiled or in the slightest degree damaged anything in it, or if its guardians neglected their duties.

So gold can be corrupted in this sense, it can be scratched or dirtied, or altered in other ways. But pure gold cannot be “destroyed” in the usual sense of “destroy”, at least not by fire.

Now to complete what I believe to be our Lord's meaning of destruction of those who travel the broad way. They will suffer a very severe refinement in the fires of Gehenna (of which Christ warned people) which will destroy their sinful, wicked natures, until the pure “gold” comes forth. Of course, they, themselves will have to repent and submit to Messiah Jesus in order for the refining process to be effective. And possibly, the fully mature sons of God will have a part in bringing the truth to these people. Sometimes, the righteous suffer such a refining process in this life. The refining of the wicked in that day will be much, much, more severe. Perhaps less refining will be necessary for those who have never heard the gospel in this life (some of them have never heard of Jesus). Whatever the case, God will do what is best for every individual.

Hi Paidion...

Thanks for the response.

Aren't Peters reader on the narrow path though? I'm not refering to God destroying christians, I'm talking about those not on the narrow path. Which you seem to have somewhat addressed:

Paidion wrote:Now to complete what I believe to be our Lord's meaning of destruction of those who travel the broad way. They will suffer a very severe refinement in the fires of Gehenna (of which Christ warned people) which will destroy their sinful, wicked natures, until the pure “gold” comes forth. Of course, they, themselves will have to repent and submit to Messiah Jesus in order for the refining process to be effective. And possibly, the fully mature sons of God will have a part in bringing the truth to these people. Sometimes, the righteous suffer such a refining process in this life. The refining of the wicked in that day will be much, much, more severe. Perhaps less refining will be necessary for those who have never heard the gospel in this life (some of them have never heard of Jesus). Whatever the case, God will do what is best for every individual.

Where can we find this in scripture... especially this:

Paidion wrote:They will suffer a very severe refinement in the fires of Gehenna (of which Christ warned people) which will destroy their sinful, wicked natures, until the pure “gold” comes forth.

Again... when you answer this, I'm not talking about christians, I'm talking about those NOT on the narrow path.

Paidion wrote:Our Lord made this statement in the context of the Pharisees saying that He cast out demons through the prince of demons. However, the fact is that our Lord cast out demons through the Holy Spirit. So the Pharisees were blaspheming against the Holy Spirit. To attribute the working of the Spirit to demons is a mind set which tends to be permanent and unchangeable. However, this passage does not mean that such a person has no hope for a future repentance and forgiveness under the severe discipline of Gehenna (unless one assumes that "the age to come" means "eternity")

Why can we even begin to assume that? What would give us that idea?

I'm not sure why someone's mind could not be changed regarding this, therefore leading to repentance, but the passage doesn't seem to indicate rehabilitation for some reason.

RV wrote:My question (which has probably been asked a million time, but I want to start a fresh thread) is: how do you reconcile Matt 12:32?

Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt 12:32)

RV,

First of all, we must determine what "ages" Christ is referring to here. He mentions "this age", and also, "the age to come." I tend to think that when He said, "this age" he was referring to the dispensation of the Law of Moses; when He said, "the age to come" He was referring to the Church age. Why is this important? Because I think most tend to think that "the age to come" refers to eternity, which is not an age, but it is beyond the ages.

Secondly, if someone is not forgiven of something, it means they have to suffer the consequences; conversely, when one is forgiven, the penalty is removed. So then, what is the penalty or consequence of speaking against the Holy Spirit? Christ didn't say, but whatever the consequence there is nothing in this passage to suggest that never-ending punishment is involved.

Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. (Mat 7:13-14)

What is referred to by "life" and "destruction" in this passage? Does it refer to something that is to occur after Christ's return and the resurrection? I don't believe so. One can find new life in Christ now in this lifetime. In addition, one can also find "destruction" in this lifetime, which is exactly what happened to the Prodigal son in Luke 15. Consider this verse.

Luke 15:24
For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.

The word "lost" in this passage is translated from the Greek word apollumi which is often translated "destruction" or "destroyed." So it is possible to be lost or destroyed and yet still be alive and repent and be restored to the Father, as was the case for the Prodigal son. This, I believe, is a perfect example of someone who was on the broad road which lead to his destruction, but later he repented and found life. These terms do not refer to a post-resurrection destiny IMO.

Todd

i would like to add in John 5.29 everyone is raised to either life or condemnation. Therefore no one is physically destroyed forever in this age and the ones who are condemned face judgment. The greek word for judgment is "krisis" from which we get our english word "crisis." A crisis is a time of severe testing which may have a good result , after all don't we grow the most when we get through a crisis? I think the Lake of Fire is this crisis that the great majority of mankind will face it but then in Rev 22.17 we see what may be possible.
"The Bride and the Spirit say , come whosoever thirsts and drink from the water of life." This is 5 verses from the end of the bible and i think God put it there by design as the only folks left are those in the lake of fire if you read sequentially.

Todd wrote:First of all, we must determine what "ages" Christ is referring to here.

So... you think this passage is saying: you won't be forgiven in this age, nor the age to come, but the next age, it is possible?

Todd wrote:Christ didn't say, but whatever the consequence there is nothing in this passage to suggest that never-ending punishment is involved

Yeah, I understand that, but He also didn't say they wouldn't be destroyed for all eternity.

Todd wrote:What is referred to by "life" and "destruction" in this passage? Does it refer to something that is to occur after Christ's return and the resurrection? I don't believe so. One can find new life in Christ now in this lifetime. In addition, one can also find "destruction" in this lifetime, which is exactly what happened to the Prodigal son in Luke 15. Consider this verse.

What would that look like? That is, what would it look like to find life in Christ in this life?

Todd wrote:The word "lost" in this passage is translated from the Greek word apollumi which is often translated "destruction" or "destroyed." So it is possible to be lost or destroyed and yet still be alive and repent and be restored to the Father, as was the case for the Prodigal son. This, I believe, is a perfect example of someone who was on the broad road which lead to his destruction, but later he repented and found life. These terms do not refer to a post-resurrection destiny IMO.

Again... what would that "life" look like? Please also contrast that with the "destruction" someone that doesn't have life would find.

Steve1750 wrote:i would like to add in John 5.29 everyone is raised to either life or condemnation. Therefore no one is physically destroyed forever in this age and the ones who are condemned face judgment. The greek word for judgment is "krisis" from which we get our english word "crisis." A crisis is a time of severe testing which may have a good result , after all don't we grow the most when we get through a crisis? I think the Lake of Fire is this crisis that the great majority of mankind will face it but then in Rev 22.17 we see what may be possible.
"The Bride and the Spirit say , come whosoever thirsts and drink from the water of life." This is 5 verses from the end of the bible and i think God put it there by design as the only folks left are those in the lake of fire if you read sequentially.

That may be true, but that is the equivalent of saying John was taken up in Chapter 4 by design to prove that the church is going to be ruptured before the tribulation. I'm just not sure about stuff like that.

Also... can you address this "severe testing"? How long does it last? What does it involve? What would get you to that point?

RV wrote:

Todd wrote:First of all, we must determine what "ages" Christ is referring to here.

So... you think this passage is saying: you won't be forgiven in this age, nor the age to come, but the next age, it is possible?

If you cannot be forgiven of a sin then you will have to suffer the consequences. The Bible tells us that punishment will be dealt out according to the sin - in other words it is proportional.

Luke 12:47-48
And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

Here Jesus speaks of "many stripes" and "few stripes". This is punishment in proportion to the sin. So when the punishment is completed is then possible to be reconciled?...I believe so.

Todd wrote:What is referred to by "life" and "destruction" in this passage? Does it refer to something that is to occur after Christ's return and the resurrection? I don't believe so. One can find new life in Christ now in this lifetime. In addition, one can also find "destruction" in this lifetime, which is exactly what happened to the Prodigal son in Luke 15. Consider this verse.

What would that look like? That is, what would it look like to find life in Christ in this life?

To "find life" simply means becoming a Christian or be "born again". When one finds life, old things are passed away and all things become new. One's life is changed for the better; he follows the leading of the Holy Spirit and reaps the spiritual blessings thereof; namely, love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, kindness, and self-control.

John 10:10b
I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

Todd wrote:The word "lost" in this passage is translated from the Greek word apollumi which is often translated "destruction" or "destroyed." So it is possible to be lost or destroyed and yet still be alive and repent and be restored to the Father, as was the case for the Prodigal son. This, I believe, is a perfect example of someone who was on the broad road which lead to his destruction, but later he repented and found life. These terms do not refer to a post-resurrection destiny IMO.

Again... what would that "life" look like? Please also contrast that with the "destruction" someone that doesn't have life would find.

We have a perfect example of a destroyed life with the prodigal son.

Luke 15:13
And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

Here's an example of someone who was consumed with selfish desires, who found himself in total ruin. This is the result of being overcome in sin. This IMO is what the new testament is referring to with terms such as "lost", "destroyed", "perished" or "dead". It does not refer to a post-resurrection destiny; rather, these terms describe one's life who is overcome in sin and selfish desires. This is an extreme constrast to one who has "life" who reaps God's spiritual blessings.

Todd

Todd wrote:Luke 12:47-48
And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

Would you then agree:

Someone who knows God's will is a christian (servant) -------> The Spirit had to open the christians (servant) eyes to see God's will -------> The person not knowing (he who did not know) God's will is NOT a christian.

------> Christians will face more/longer punishment than the non-believer.

Todd wrote:If you cannot be forgiven of a sin then you will have to suffer the consequences. The Bible tells us that punishment will be dealt out according to the sin - in other words it is proportional.

I read that again and I now see what you're saying. I think you're saying: That sin will suffer consequences but can ultimately be forgiven. Yes? Is it kind of like going to jail for a time and then let go?

RV wrote:

Todd wrote:Luke 12:47-48
And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

Would you then agree:

Someone who knows God's will is a christian (servant) -------> The Spirit had to open the christians (servant) eyes to see God's will -------> The person not knowing (he who did not know) God's will is NOT a christian.

------> Christians will face more/longer punishment than the non-believer.

There is other scriptural support for this idea.....

Heb 10:29
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

Another interesting point about this scripture is it speaks of "insulting the Spirit", which is similar to "speaking against the Spirit" in Matt 12:32. The punishment for this seems to be worse for the Christian than the non-christian, but in either case the punishment is limited and has a conclusion.

Todd