Luke 13:1-5 (New King James)
1. There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2. And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3. I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5. I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”
Jesus here twice warns His hearers that, unless they repent, they would perish. What did He mean? The following might seem possible:
1. He is warning of the destruction of the Jewish nation in 70AD. This seems almost impossible; He warned that they would all perish. Surely most of them would have already been dead by 70AD, given the life span at the time, with the destruction of Jerusalem being almost 40 years in the future.
2. He is warning of their physical death if they do not repent. Again an implausable explanation; those who repent also experience physical death.
3. He is speaking of their fate after judgement. This seems to be the only understanding that makes sense, and lends strong support to the annihilationist view. The word "perish" used in the text is the Greek word apollumi.
Strong's Number: 622 a)po/llumi
Definition : to destroy, to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to, ruin, render useless, to kill, to declare that one must be put to death, metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell, to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed, to destroy, to lose
Considering some pertinent Passages (all from NKJV):
Matthew 7:13
13. “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction (apollumi), and there are many who go in by it.
Matthew 10:28
28. And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy (apollumi) both soul and body in hell.
In the above passage we see that the threatened destruction occurs post-mortem.
2 Corinthians 2:15-16
15. For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing (apollumi) 16. To the one we are the aroma of death leading to death, and to the other the aroma of life leading to life. And who is sufficient for these things?
And here we see those who are being saved contrasted with those who are perishing.
2 Thessalonians 2:10
10. and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish (apollumi), because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
Those who perish could not be saved.
Philippians 3:18-19
18. For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19. whose end is destruction (apollumi), whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.
And Paul informs us here that the fate of the enemies of Christ terminates in destruction.
From the lexicon regarding "end" (telos):
Strong's Number: 5056 teÑlov
Definition : end, termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time), the end, the last in any succession or series, eternal ,that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue,
the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose, toll, custom (i.e. indirect tax on goods)
The above certainly lends strong support for annihilation, and also for an unending state of separation from God. Take your pick.
Luke 13
-
christopher
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 10:50 pm
Re: Luke 13
Hi Homer,
That is certainly a good argument for the CI position, and many (or most) of those verses I've considered myself.
However, in the verse you opened up with (Luke 13), Jesus said that they would all "likewise" perish if they don't repent.
I've always considered this verse suggesting that the Galileans were killed while offering sacrifices (although that is not necessarily the case), which would be quite the provocative act on the part of Pilate (which may have been intentional on the part of those announcing the news).
So do you think Jesus is saying that all who were killed while worshipping God were lost? If they would "likewise" perish, and he was speaking post-mortem, I'm not sure how the hearers would have made that connection.
I still think he could be warning about the pending destruction of Jerusalem here, and the "all of you" he is speaking of could be, by extension, suggestive of Israel if she doesn't repent IMO. The "likewise" to me suggests a sudden, tragic, and untimely end of life, not merely death. This, I believe, was one of the main components of Jesus message to Israel in much of what He said.
That is certainly a good argument for the CI position, and many (or most) of those verses I've considered myself.
However, in the verse you opened up with (Luke 13), Jesus said that they would all "likewise" perish if they don't repent.
I've always considered this verse suggesting that the Galileans were killed while offering sacrifices (although that is not necessarily the case), which would be quite the provocative act on the part of Pilate (which may have been intentional on the part of those announcing the news).
So do you think Jesus is saying that all who were killed while worshipping God were lost? If they would "likewise" perish, and he was speaking post-mortem, I'm not sure how the hearers would have made that connection.
I still think he could be warning about the pending destruction of Jerusalem here, and the "all of you" he is speaking of could be, by extension, suggestive of Israel if she doesn't repent IMO. The "likewise" to me suggests a sudden, tragic, and untimely end of life, not merely death. This, I believe, was one of the main components of Jesus message to Israel in much of what He said.
Re: Luke 13
I, too, think the word "likewise" is very significant our Lord's statement: "Unless you repent you will all likewise perish"
If, without repentance, they would perished likewise to the perishing of those killed by Pilate, or those on whom the tower in Siloam fell, then the death to which Jesus referred must be a physical death. If our Lord had been speaking of a spiritual death (CI) or their "fate after judgment" (ET), such a "perishing" or "destruction" would not be in a likewise fashion.
To those who told our Lord about what Pilate had done, I think His message was that they shouldn't think that they were any better than those people who perished. Jesus was telling them that even though they were just as great sinners, God had spared them to give them a chance to repent. For He followed his teaching with this parable in verses 6-9:
And he told this parable: "A man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. And he said to the vinedresser, ‘Lo, these three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and I find none. Cut it down; why should it use up the ground?’ And he answered him, ‘Let it alone, sir, this year also, till I dig about it and put on manure. And if it bears fruit next year, well and good; but if not, you can cut it down.’"
Just as this man had found no fruit on his fig tree for three years, yet didn't allow the vinedresser to cut it down, but to give it one more year to bear fruit, so God is merciful to the sinners who do not bear the fruit of righteousness, and will give them more time in hopes that they will repent and bear such fruit.
If, without repentance, they would perished likewise to the perishing of those killed by Pilate, or those on whom the tower in Siloam fell, then the death to which Jesus referred must be a physical death. If our Lord had been speaking of a spiritual death (CI) or their "fate after judgment" (ET), such a "perishing" or "destruction" would not be in a likewise fashion.
To those who told our Lord about what Pilate had done, I think His message was that they shouldn't think that they were any better than those people who perished. Jesus was telling them that even though they were just as great sinners, God had spared them to give them a chance to repent. For He followed his teaching with this parable in verses 6-9:
And he told this parable: "A man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. And he said to the vinedresser, ‘Lo, these three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and I find none. Cut it down; why should it use up the ground?’ And he answered him, ‘Let it alone, sir, this year also, till I dig about it and put on manure. And if it bears fruit next year, well and good; but if not, you can cut it down.’"
Just as this man had found no fruit on his fig tree for three years, yet didn't allow the vinedresser to cut it down, but to give it one more year to bear fruit, so God is merciful to the sinners who do not bear the fruit of righteousness, and will give them more time in hopes that they will repent and bear such fruit.
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: Luke 13
Homer,
I am going to try to reply to your post. I have so many things I wish to say in response, I doubt I will have the energy to type it all out.
First, I agree with Chris that the word likewise in the Luke 13 passage is key to understanding Jesus teaching. There was something about the disasters Jesus spoke of that was similar to the judgment of which He was warning. For me it is easiest to understand the passage as a warning of the impending judgment of the nation, on those who did not trust the Christ and heed his warnings.
Next, you make a strong point regarding the word apollumi. We have discussed this word at length before. We can agree that the word has destruction as a primary meaning, but what is being destroyed? I personally believe that God does not waste anything. The sufferings, punishments, and destruction He allows (or causes?) are all purposeful. He would not destroy anything that still had value. So what is the "soul" that it is said is able to be destroyed by someone more powerful than mere men.
(It is worthy of note that the passages that speak of the soul being destroyed - Luke 12, Mt 10 - are first of all telling His disciples to NOT fear men, and that they are so very valuable to God that the very hairs of their heads are numbered!)
But what is the soul that can be destroyed? This is a good question because it seems to be used in different ways in the Bible. The greek word is psuchē, as I am sure you are aware. In 1 Cor. 15, the chapter that teaches on the resurrection, a related word psuchikos is used to describe the kind of body we have now, a "soulish" or "natural" body. The one that we give up to receive a "spiritual" or pneumatikos body. The corruptible taken away, and replaced with an incorruptible one. The mortal one removed, and replace with an immortal one.
I believe that "soul" here (in Mt. 10:28) speaks of the life that we are building with the choices we make in this life. The passage in Mt. speaks to this I believe in verse 39.
I believe the idea of the soul that is destroyed being the poor choices of this life is also seen in the parallel passage in Lk. 12. First in the parable of the rich man who hoarded his wealth and was judged by God (vss 16-21), and later in vss 33-34:
I think you and I agree that the bible teaches we ALL reap what we sow. If you sow to the flesh, you will of the flesh reap corruption. I personally believe the "end" (telos) of the flesh, is what is spoken of that is "destroyed". The soul (mind, will, affections?) that is destroyed is everything that we sowed in this life that has no eternal value.
But the things that we do that are eternal, even the smallest kind act, will stand through the fire, and be rewarded!
(Here again from the Mt 10 context - v 42)
But I grow weary, Gotta go...
I wish I could explain this better. It is so much clearer when I "think" it than when I type it
Someday we will agree Homer. Until that day, blessings to you!
Mike
I am going to try to reply to your post. I have so many things I wish to say in response, I doubt I will have the energy to type it all out.
First, I agree with Chris that the word likewise in the Luke 13 passage is key to understanding Jesus teaching. There was something about the disasters Jesus spoke of that was similar to the judgment of which He was warning. For me it is easiest to understand the passage as a warning of the impending judgment of the nation, on those who did not trust the Christ and heed his warnings.
Next, you make a strong point regarding the word apollumi. We have discussed this word at length before. We can agree that the word has destruction as a primary meaning, but what is being destroyed? I personally believe that God does not waste anything. The sufferings, punishments, and destruction He allows (or causes?) are all purposeful. He would not destroy anything that still had value. So what is the "soul" that it is said is able to be destroyed by someone more powerful than mere men.
(It is worthy of note that the passages that speak of the soul being destroyed - Luke 12, Mt 10 - are first of all telling His disciples to NOT fear men, and that they are so very valuable to God that the very hairs of their heads are numbered!)
But what is the soul that can be destroyed? This is a good question because it seems to be used in different ways in the Bible. The greek word is psuchē, as I am sure you are aware. In 1 Cor. 15, the chapter that teaches on the resurrection, a related word psuchikos is used to describe the kind of body we have now, a "soulish" or "natural" body. The one that we give up to receive a "spiritual" or pneumatikos body. The corruptible taken away, and replaced with an incorruptible one. The mortal one removed, and replace with an immortal one.
I believe that "soul" here (in Mt. 10:28) speaks of the life that we are building with the choices we make in this life. The passage in Mt. speaks to this I believe in verse 39.
In this verse your favored word apollumi appears twice. To find your life you must "destroy" it.He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
I believe the idea of the soul that is destroyed being the poor choices of this life is also seen in the parallel passage in Lk. 12. First in the parable of the rich man who hoarded his wealth and was judged by God (vss 16-21), and later in vss 33-34:
Our heart (the things we desire most, our affections, our thoughts) will be for the heavenly things if we "invest" with that in mind.Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
I think you and I agree that the bible teaches we ALL reap what we sow. If you sow to the flesh, you will of the flesh reap corruption. I personally believe the "end" (telos) of the flesh, is what is spoken of that is "destroyed". The soul (mind, will, affections?) that is destroyed is everything that we sowed in this life that has no eternal value.
But the things that we do that are eternal, even the smallest kind act, will stand through the fire, and be rewarded!
(Here again from the Mt 10 context - v 42)
I would love to talk to you more, regarding the other verses you quoted, including the one from Philippians. I love Phil 3! Verse 10 may be my favorite verse in the bible!And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward
But I grow weary, Gotta go...
I wish I could explain this better. It is so much clearer when I "think" it than when I type it
Someday we will agree Homer. Until that day, blessings to you!
Mike
Re: Luke 13
Mike,mdh wrote:Our heart (the things we desire most, our affections, our thoughts) will be for the heavenly things if we "invest" with that in mind.Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
I think you and I agree that the bible teaches we ALL reap what we sow. If you sow to the flesh, you will of the flesh reap corruption. I personally believe the "end" (telos) of the flesh, is what is spoken of that is "destroyed". The soul (mind, will, affections?) that is destroyed is everything that we sowed in this life that has no eternal value.
But the things that we do that are eternal, even the smallest kind act, will stand through the fire, and be rewarded!
I just had a thought regarding what you have said here. Consider the following verse....
Acts 17:31
He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."
The part of this scripture that is relevant to my point is that it says that Christ will judge the world "in righteousness". You have said that the things we do that are eternal will stand through the fire and be rewarded. Perhaps this is what is meant by judging in righteousness (i.e., righteous deeds will be rewarded).
Todd
Last edited by Todd on Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Luke 13
It seems Jesus is addressing the cultural issue of saying that such and such people were worst sinners and thats why such and such disaster happened there. Of course this judgmental attitude (about we being better than they are cause we don't sin like them) is common among the church groups today.
Luke 13 overall addresses the blindness of the people against the prophesied judgment on Jerusalem as seen about the judgmental attitude in vv 1-5 and in the emphasis of the sabbath against Christ healing vv 11-16.
The word translated as "likewise" just said that more people in Jerusalem would perish than those that died in the Siloam Tower incident (which tower also was in or around Jerusalem).
Then, although Jesus' words would be accurate with respect to death and final destinies, the topic is only that these people would die. The mention of this death is scoped in juxtaposition to their judgmental attitude.
Luke 13 overall addresses the blindness of the people against the prophesied judgment on Jerusalem as seen about the judgmental attitude in vv 1-5 and in the emphasis of the sabbath against Christ healing vv 11-16.
The word translated as "likewise" just said that more people in Jerusalem would perish than those that died in the Siloam Tower incident (which tower also was in or around Jerusalem).
Then, although Jesus' words would be accurate with respect to death and final destinies, the topic is only that these people would die. The mention of this death is scoped in juxtaposition to their judgmental attitude.
Please visit my youtube channel -- http://youtube.com/@thebibledialogues
Also visit parablesofthemysteries.com
Re: Luke 13
Thanks for the interesting replies. It seems to me that of all the alternative explanations you supplied of the passage in Luke 13, the idea of a national perishing is most likely considering Luke related the parable of the fig tree immediately following. However, this does not change anything regarding the understanding of the other texts, in particular Phillippians 3:18-19.
I noticed another interesting passage where Paul appears to lend support to the traditional understanding of Matthew 25:46:
Romans 6:18-23 (New King James Version)
18. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19. I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21. What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22. But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Here we see we can only serve one master. Either sin or righteousness (both personified as master). The end result of serving the "sin" master is death. The end result of being God's slave is eternal (aionios) life. Paul states this twice over in vs. 21-23. And here again, as in Matthew 25, Paul uses antithesis: death vs. eternal/everlasting life. Regarding the passage in Matthew 25:46 the universalist argues that the punishment is corrective ("pruning"). Paul leaves no room for this argument. The end is death. Comparing the parallel statements of Jesus and Paul, the meaning is clarified in both places.
I noticed another interesting passage where Paul appears to lend support to the traditional understanding of Matthew 25:46:
Romans 6:18-23 (New King James Version)
18. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19. I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21. What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22. But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Here we see we can only serve one master. Either sin or righteousness (both personified as master). The end result of serving the "sin" master is death. The end result of being God's slave is eternal (aionios) life. Paul states this twice over in vs. 21-23. And here again, as in Matthew 25, Paul uses antithesis: death vs. eternal/everlasting life. Regarding the passage in Matthew 25:46 the universalist argues that the punishment is corrective ("pruning"). Paul leaves no room for this argument. The end is death. Comparing the parallel statements of Jesus and Paul, the meaning is clarified in both places.
Re: Luke 13
Homer,Homer wrote:I noticed another interesting passage where Paul appears to lend support to the traditional understanding of Matthew 25:46:
Romans 6:18-23 (New King James Version)
18. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19. I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21. What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22. But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
In this passage you quoted from Romans 6 you have underlined certain parts you wish to emphasize. In v.21 "the end of those things is death," and v.22, "the end, eternal life." In these two verses the words "the end" is used both times. My question is, the end of what? Is it "the end of time?"...or "the end of Judgment Day?"..."the end of your life?" Or could it be "the end result of your choices", in which case the consequences named (death or eternal life) are realized in this life rather than the after-life? If the latter is true, then when it speaks of death it is referring to spiritual death, and eternal life is referring to our present life in Christ.
The following scripture is speaking of the prodigal son....
Luke 15:24
for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' And they began to be merry.
He was not resurrected from physical death, but he found new life from a spiritual death. Notice also that the word "lost" comes from the same Greek word apollumi which is sometimes translated "perish". So it seems that in this instance someone can perish and still be alive physically, and after he has repented can find new life.
Todd
Re: Luke 13
Hi Todd,
Thanks for your reply.
The problem with the Prodigal Son analogy is that he was still living, yet "dead". He had not reached the end (telos). We can be "dead" in a sense, while yet physically alive, as in "dead in trespasses and sins". However, an endpoint is reached:
Hebrews 9:27 (New King James Version)
27. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment
Paul spoke of reaching the end, using the metaphor of a race:
1 Corinthians 9:24-27 (New King James Version)
24. Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25. And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26. Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
The end result he seeks is an imperisahable crown (eternal life). And I believe, as Paul's analogy indicates, we reach the end of the race when our life ends; we do not get to run the race again.
Blessings, Homer
Thanks for your reply.
The problem with the Prodigal Son analogy is that he was still living, yet "dead". He had not reached the end (telos). We can be "dead" in a sense, while yet physically alive, as in "dead in trespasses and sins". However, an endpoint is reached:
Hebrews 9:27 (New King James Version)
27. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment
Paul spoke of reaching the end, using the metaphor of a race:
1 Corinthians 9:24-27 (New King James Version)
24. Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25. And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26. Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
The end result he seeks is an imperisahable crown (eternal life). And I believe, as Paul's analogy indicates, we reach the end of the race when our life ends; we do not get to run the race again.
Blessings, Homer
Re: Luke 13
Hi Homer,Homer wrote:The end result he seeks is an imperisahable crown (eternal life). And I believe, as Paul's analogy indicates, we reach the end of the race when our life ends; we do not get to run the race again.
I think it is difficult to draw an iron clad conclusion about this unless we can know for certain what is meant by the term "eternal life". Traditionally, it has been taught that it means "live forever in heaven". However, when someone repents and commits to follow Christ doesn't he pass from death unto life at that point? Isn't he risen with Chirst?...and born again unto new life? Isn't this "new life" eternal life? If so, then eternal life describes a condition one has while still living, not something one has to wait to receive in the resurrection.
Also, as you have acknowledged, "spiritual death" is a condition one can experience while still physically alive if he is overcome in sin. It seems to me that in Romans 6 Paul is describing someone who is a slave to sin which lead this person to become spiritually dead as the end result of his choices.
I remember so many of the old church songs I used to sing that said something like, "I am just a weary pilgrim plodding through this life....." This kind of thinking totally overlooks the joy we can have in Christ now - in this life. We don't have to wait until the end of our life to receive God's blessings.
As I have stated before in other threads, I think that what we seek in the after-life is "immortality" which is not synonomous with "eternal life". Immortality is most definitely an imperishable crown which we cannot have in this life.
Todd