A Question about Conditional Immortality

[anochria]

The "afterlife" position I know the least about is "conditional immortality". So, a question a question to help me think more clearly about it:

Does this position hold to any post-death consciousness or punishment of those who aren't "in Christ"?

[RickC]

anochria (hello),

Many, and perhaps most(?), who hold to CI believe in "soul sleep."

I lean strongly toward CI but don't have the "riddle" solved of what type of existence the dead have till the resurrection.

Some adherents of CI may believe there will be some type of consciousness in the In-Between period (that is, between when we die till The Rez). My personal leaning is that believers will have "life after life" as per N.T. Wright and Rev 20. However (in this view), this "life" is in a disembodied state - before we (Christians) are reunited to our bodies in eternity.

Glenn Peoples is an "expert" of the CI view (though he may not share the beliefs of all CI adherents).
Here's an article he wrote: Afterlife (and you may find further info on the site).

Excerpted from article

Death = extinction

When a person dies he or she returns to the dust and the spirit (or breath of life) returns to God (Psalm 104:29). The Bible often uses the imagery of death as “sleep”, a sleep that only God can awake us from (e.g. Job 3:13; 14:12, Psalm 13:3; 22:29, Daniel 12:2, 1 Cor 15:20).
__________

We believe that Jesus’ ascension and sending of the Holy Spirit are our only hope of true change within us in this life (Rom 12:2; John 14:26; Rom 15:16; Titus 3:5).

We believe there is nothing immortal in us in and of ourselves, therefore Jesus is our only hope for eternal life (1 Cor 15:53,54; 1 Tim 6:16; 2 Tim 1:10).

We believe that when we die we return to the ground, therefore our only hope is the return of Jesus Christ when we will be raised from the grave (Gen 3:19; Job 21:23-26; John 5:25-29; 1 Cor 15:20-23). Immortality then, is “conditional”, we can only receive it from God as a gift.

The hope for the dead lies in the Second Coming (1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Thess 4:13-18). We look forward to the return of Christ as the time when the dead will be raised and judged and rewarded or punished.

It appears Glenn believes in "soul sleep" for all till The Rez.

Maybe Steve will see your thread & have further info?
Happy Rez Day!

[Michelle]

Just to add to Rick's post, here is a link to what Glenn said on this forum about punishment in answer to a question from Suzana. It's from a thread titled "Conditional Immortality Links" which is just a few steps down.

[RickC]

From Michelle's link, Glenn Peoples wrote:

(By the way, hi everyone - Glenn Peoples here)

Edward Fudge says (in person) that his take on annihilationism allows for the possibility of the lost being punished to whatever extent justice requires before they are no more - but his view doesn't require it. It just leaves open that possibility.

I don't believe this will happen. In fact I think it introduces considerable confusion over what the punishment for sin really is. The punishment is death, or loss of life. So no amount of other kinds of unpleasantness will do anything at all as far as justice is concerned. If the annihilationist case draws so much strength (and it does) from the biblical proclamation that the wages of sin is death, we really undermine that strength by suggesting that the lost might receive the wages of sin before they are finally destroyed. This just caves into the traditionalist notion that the wages of sin is extended suffering.

This raises the next question on CI (which is usually asked as):
"If the wages of sin is death: Why will the unbelieving dead be resurrected? only to be annihilated?"

Usual replies (that do have scriptural support):
1. ALL will give a full and final account to God at the (general) resurrection.
2. Believers will be raised to a resurrection of life - unbelievers to a resurrection of condemnation (i.e., total annihilation - non-existence (dead) forever - i.e., The Second Death).

My IMOs.
Still don't have the In-Between (i.e., intermediate) State figured out for believers (Rev 20)....

[steve]

In answer to the original question, there is no one view held by all CIs about either the intermediate state nor the resurrection.

Fudge seems to believe in no consciousness of anyone after death, but accepts the orthodox doctrine of a resurrection both of the just and the unjust.

This is also the Seventh-Day Adventist view.

The Jehovah's Witnesses hold the same view, except that they believe only the righteous will be resurrected. They deny the resurrection of the wicked.

Some (I think I would be one of these, were I to embrace CI myself—which is not inconceivable) believe that the lost are unconscious after death, but will be resurrected, while the saved have already "passed from death into life" and "shall never die." Thus the intermediate state would be life in the presence of Christ, for the saved, and unconsciousness for the lost. Both the saved and the lost will then be resurrected on the same day.

I am leaning to this view of things even without a full commitment to CI. As you know, I am undecided between Conditional Immortality and Universal Reconciliation—as both seem to have strong scriptural and philosophical support. Regardless which of these two is true (or even if the Eternal Torment view were true), the situation described in the previous paragraph could easily be true. The only difference, then, would be the question of what happens to the lost after the resurrection.

[anochria]

Thanks, several of you anticipated my next questions. That's helpful.

A follow-up question: if the final judgment after the resurrection of the wicked is to be equated with immediate annihilation, how do we make sense of statements in Scripture which seem to indicate degrees of suffering after the final judgment?

I'm thinking of passages such as those in the gospels where it is said that the Pharisees will receive the "greater damnation" (cf Mark 12:40) or the "many blows/ few blows" of Luke 12:47-48 (depending on your eschatological perspective) or the "blackest darkness" that is spoken of in 2 Peter and Jude?

Furthermore, doesn't 2 Cor. 5:10:

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

seem to indicate more specificity in regard to the relationship between our actions and our punishments than those have in mind who say the punishment is merely death?

[steve]

Again, there are differences of opinion among Conditionalists (as they are usually called by others and themselves).

There are some who believe in immediate annihilation after the judgment, but I think the majority that I read allow that there will be varying degrees of judgment meted out prior to annihilation.

[Glenn]

Hi all.

All evangelical annihilationists that I have encountered affirm the resurrection of all the dead, so yes, there is consciousness for the wicked after death, prior to their judgement and destruction.

[steve7150]

I think the basis of the CI view is "the wages of sin is death" but did Paul mean physical death necessarily?
"Therefore just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned, sin was indeed in the world before the law , but sin is not reckoned when there is no law. Yet death exercised dominion from Adam to Moses". Rom 5.12

The last phrase about death exercising dominion until Moses would not jive to physical death since it continued unabated after Moses.
I think it also alludes to Adam's death "in this day" being spiritual death.

[SteveF]

I think the basis of the CI view is "the wages of sin is death" but did Paul mean physical death necessarily?
"Therefore just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned, sin was indeed in the world before the law , but sin is not reckoned when there is no law. Yet death exercised dominion from Adam to Moses". Rom 5.12

The last phrase about death exercising dominion until Moses would not jive to physical death since it continued unabated after Moses.
I think it also alludes to Adam's death "in this day" being spiritual death.

Hi Steve, I think the reason he mentioned mentioned "Adam to Moses" was he was trying to show the penalty of sin (death) existed before the law (Moses) and not only after the law was given.