Craig re Talbott

[Homer]

Steve, I tried to email these links to you, I had mentioned them at McMinnville. I had a problem with getting the links properly in the email; these should work.

[Talbott's Universalism]

[Talbott's Universalism Once More]

[Paidion]

Talbott replies to Craig's Objections with regards to the impossibility of remaining happy in heaven, knowing that your loved ones are suffering endless torment.

Does God conceal the truth from Christians?

Reply to Craig: Part 2

[Homer]

Paidion,

Talbott wrote:

According to Craig’s first claim, I have assumed “without justification that the redeemed in heaven do know that some persons are damned” forever. But strictly speaking, as a universalist who rejects the idea of eternal damnation altogether, I could hardly make any such assumption as that. Neither have I ever denied that God could, if he so desired, damn some of my own loved ones even as he renders me blissfully ignorant of this fact. Could I not experience great joy, for example, at the very moment that my daughter is being raped, tortured, and murdered? Of course I could--provided, of course, that I remain wholly ignorant of what is happening to her. But why suppose that such blissful ignorance would qualify as true blessedness at all, or even as an objectively worthwhile form of happiness? Not all forms of happiness, after all, are equally worthwhile. If I should be happy while acting immorally, or if I should delight in the sufferings of others, then my happiness would hardly qualify as true blessedness in the Christian sense. So the issue finally boils down to this: Just what are the conditions of true blessedness? I contend that, according to the Christian religion, true blessedness is precisely the kind of happiness that God himself enjoys: It can literally endure forever, it requires a heart filled with love for others, and it must be able to survive, even as God’s own happiness does survive, a complete disclosure of truth about the universe. Jesus himself put it this way: “you shall know the truth, and the truth [not blissful ignorance and not an elaborate deception] shall make you free (Jn. 8:32). But it is almost as if Craig wants him to say: “You shall not know the truth, and your blissful ignorance shall preserve your happiness even in the face of terrible tragedy.”

So Talbott insists that we can have true blessedness only if we have precisely the happiness God enjoys, thus we can not be happy if we know some are suffering in hell. The knowledge of suffering of those we love (and even those we don't) will destroy any possible state of blessedness? I'm wondering how God has been feeling the last several thousand years, since shortly after the fall of man. The total suffering endured by those God universally loves is far beyond measure, and is a constant in this fallen world. So what kind of happiness is it that God enjoys now, or is He constantly unhappy, and will remain in that state until your universalist paradigm is fully realized? We read of the great joy in heaven when a sinner repents. Is God even momentarily happy? Does He now have a "full disclosure of the truth"?

Methinks your Talbott fellow isn't the sharpest tack in the box.

[Paidion]

So Talbott insists that we can have true blessedness only if we have precisely the happiness God enjoys, thus we can not be happy if we know some are suffering in hell.

Not quite. Those in heaven can be happy knowing God is doing His best for each person. With respect to the rebellion and hate of many, this will take the form of very severe correction. So a person in heaven can have true blessedness, knowing that though a loved one's suffering may be long and hard, it will not be permanent. So it's not knowledge of suffering in hell, but knowledge of ETERNAL suffering in hell which would destroy one's happiness,

The knowledge of suffering of those we love (and even those we don't) will destroy any possible state of blessedness?

Nope. Only if the knowledge indicated that the suffering was endless.

I'm wondering how God has been feeling the last several thousand years, since shortly after the fall of man. The total suffering endured by those God universally loves is far beyond measure, and is a constant in this fallen world.

Yes indeed, it is horrible: tortures, rapes, and many other atrocities. Somehow God has decided not to generally interfere with the free will of man. However, God knows that the terrible suffering to which you refer will not last forever. But in the ET scene, it does. God will have complete victory over Satan. But if the vast majority of mankind (I still think it's over 99% of them) will suffer in hell eternally, then it appears that Satan is the victor.

So what kind of happiness is it that God enjoys now, or is He constantly unhappy, and will remain in that state until your universalist paradigm is fully realized?

I think His great heart is frequently broken by the suffering of man. Mr. Pierce, founder of World Vision, prayed, "May my heart be broken with the things that break the heart of God". His prayer was answered, and as a result he founded that great organization which has relieved so much suffering ever since.

However, God will eventually realize "His universalist paradigm", by winning ALL of His enemies over to His side, after which His happiness and ours will be total! Hallelujah!

[Homer]

Paidion,

You wrote:

So a person in heaven can have true blessedness, knowing that though a loved one's suffering may be long and hard, it will not be permanent. So it's not knowledge of suffering in hell, but knowledge of ETERNAL suffering in hell which would destroy one's happiness,

So, by analogy, if your child was enduring severe suffering of any kind, emotional or spiritual, and you knew the suffering would end in, say, 20 years, you could experience true blessedness all the while your child suffered? Or even while your child suffered a thousand years in hell? Your (and Talbott's) argument does not hold up too well.

Philosophically (and this category includes most universalist arguments) how can God punish in hell for a thousand years, or at all?

The whole universalist controversy is similar to the question long asked regarding how a good God can allow suffering in this life - except that suffering in this life is a fact, and facts are stubborn things, and undeniable.