Universalism and the Patience of God

[Homer]

Luke 13 (New King James Version)
1. There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2. And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3. I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5. I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”
6. He also spoke this parable: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7. Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?’ 8. But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. 9. And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.’”

As I read through this passage, and studied it, the thought struck me of relavance to the arguments of the Universalists. Jesus speaks of the necessity of repentance, then Luke relates Jesus' parable of the fig tree. The man came seeking fruit for three years, and had found none. The Law forbade the eating of the fruit until the fifth year, Leviticus 19:21-23, so the tree by this time must have been at least seven years old. By this time the tree would appear to be hopelessly fruitless. As trees do, it is also using nutrients that would otherwise support other plants in the vineyard. The tree needs to be cut down, yet the caretaker (representing Christ?) wants to take the extraordinary step of applying fertilizer, giving the tree one last chance. Then, if there is no fruit, the tree will be cut down.

In Jesus' parable we find both the patience of God, and we find that His patience is not without limit. Yet one of the principle arguments of the Universalists is that God's patience knows no limits. Their system, as argued interminably, depends on that idea. It is a philosophical argument, as the only good arguments of the Universalists are. The scriptures inform us that God's patience does in fact have its limits (see the story of Noah and the flood, for example). As a principle argument of the Universalists for their position, one would expect that Christian Universalists would be able to prove, from the scriptures, that God's patience has no limit.

Genesis 6:3 (New King James Version)
3. And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”

Psalm 95:7-11 (New King James Version)

7. For He is our God,
And we are the people of His pasture,
And the sheep of His hand.

Today, if you will hear His voice:
8. “Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion,
As in the day of trial in the wilderness,
9. When your fathers tested Me;
They tried Me, though they saw My work.
10. For forty years I was grieved with that generation,
And said, ‘It is a people who go astray in their hearts,
And they do not know My ways.’
11. So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ”


Hebrews 4:7 (New King James Version)
7. again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:
“ Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

So we see God's limited patience, factually demonstrared in the Old Testament and reiterated in the New Testament. It is incumbent upon the Universalist to show from scripture, not just the philosophy of men, that though God's patience is limited in this life, it has no limit in eternity. Even better, and easier, show that it is any longer at all than it is in this life.

[Jill]

.

[steve7150]

6. He also spoke this parable: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7. Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?’ 8. But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. 9. And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.’”




Yes Homer God clearly judges numerous times in scripture as this parable shows the consequence of judgment was destruction like it was with the flood and Canaan and Sodom and Jerusalem 70AD which this parable may speak about.
CU is more based on what God's will is rather then his patience and whether or not his will is going to be done or is man's so called "free will" to much of a barrior for God to overcome.
How long did Paul's free will hold up when he met the Lord? About 3 seconds?

[RND]

How long did Paul's free will hold up when he met the Lord? About 3 seconds?

Assumes facts not in evidence.

[TK]

RND-

if you mean by your comment that Paul's conscience was probably bothering him big time prior to the damascus road, i would agree with you. Jesus told him its hard to kick against the goads.

it's good to see you steve-- it's been a while.

TK

[RND]

RND-

if you mean by your comment that Paul's conscience was probably bothering him big time prior to the damascus road, i would agree with you. Jesus told him its hard to kick against the goads.

it's good to see you steve-- it's been a while.

TK

Yeah it's that, but also the fact that, when we think about it, Paul still had "free will" after his "Damascus Road" experience. This time however he chose to exercise his free will to save lives, not take them. My comment was, in essence, simply to point out the fact that we always have freedom of choice.

[steve7150]

it's good to see you steve-- it's been a while.

TK


Thanks TK , merry Christmas!

[steve7150]

steve7150 wrote:
How long did Paul's free will hold up when he met the Lord? About 3 seconds?


Assumes facts not in evidence.


The main point i was trying to make was that it took a few seconds for Paul to change his mind when he saw the truth presented to him in no uncertain terms and i think when most people are face to face with Christ on judgment day not many would last much longer.
Now what God does with this reaction constitute the differences of opinion regarding the views of hell.

[RND]

The main point i was trying to make was that it took a few seconds for Paul to change his mind when he saw the truth presented to him in no uncertain terms and i think when most people are face to face with Christ on judgment day not many would last much longer.

I think we should look at this particular aspect in the context in which it happened to Paul and take our lessons as to how this story is similar to situations in our lives. Paul was alive and wasn't facing "judgment day" on the Damascus Road. We as Christians it seems have our own "Damascus Road" experience.

Now what God does with this reaction constitute the differences of opinion regarding the views of hell.

I think we could use this example as to the lengths God will use to draw us to His Son. He doesn't desire any should perish so He works hard at demonstrating His goodness and mercy in this life.

[steve7150]

I think we could use this example as to the lengths God will use to draw us to His Son. He doesn't desire any should perish so He works hard at demonstrating His goodness and mercy in this life.RND



He works hard at demonstrating his goodness? I believe God is love just as John said, but from what i see in this world God uses evil as a tool for humans to eventually benefit from.
But the concept of using evil as a learning mechanism does not support the concept that God works hard to demonstrate his goodness to us. We can find his goodness if we read scripture and if we are drawn to him through other means but the number one reason that people don't believe God cares for us is the constant suffering and pain and apparent lack of justice in this life for the majority of people who have lived on this planet.
I know that God will use evil for good but it is clearly a difficult concept to accept in this life.