I Timothy 4:10 and Universal Reconciliation

[paulespino]

Each person must repent and submit to the Lordship of Christ. It is God's "purpose of the ages" (Ephesians 3:11) for them to do so, through their own choice. God will provide strong influence for those who refuse throughout this life (or don't have the opportunity) ---- that's over 99% of all people who have ever lived. That influence will certainly include the very severe judgment in Gehenna, which may take many ages for some (or all) the people who go there. I am sure this judgment will differ in intensity, according to one's opportunity to know Christ. But we can trust God to be perfectly just in that matter. God's influence may also include (in my opinion) the proclamation of the "everlasting" gospel to those in Gehenna, of the fully mature "sons of God" for whom creation is groaning. I emphasize, it will be through each individual's choice. God will not force it upon anyone. In that case, might not some people hold out forever? Theoretically that's possible, but practically, it is impossible. For God will keep them in Gehenna until they do submit, no matter how long it takes.

I would like to temporarily join the conversation.

1) The above statement seems to be more like a theory and assumption base on God's love.

2)

God's influence may also include (in my opinion) the proclamation of the "everlasting" gospel to those in Gehenna, of the fully mature "sons of God" for whom creation is groaning

Is this statement supported by the scripture?

3)

I emphasize, it will be through each individual's choice. God will not force it upon anyone. In that case, might not some people hold out forever? Theoretically that's possible, but practically, it is impossible. For God will keep them in Gehenna until they do submit, no matter how long it takes

This statement seems to be more like a forceful conversion rather than a choice. In which case the choice was taken away. This is an equivalent to Rape.

Note: I use the word rape to make a point, tha's all.

[paulespino]

By Shedd:

Every doctrine has its day to be attacked, and defended. Just now, that of
Eternal Retribution is strenuously combated, not only outside of the
church, but to some extent within it. Whoever preaches it is said, by some,
not “to preach to the times “ — as if the sin of this time were privileged,
and stood in a different relation to the law and judgment of God, from that
of other times.

I just want to add that although I don't agree with the doctrine of UR, I must say that Paidion has defended his battle position very well.

[Todd]

Regarding 1 Tim 4:10, my view is that God punishes no one after death; that the punishments of God and the "Lake of Fire" refer to the negative consquences of sin in this life. In that God is "the Savior of all men" refers to the fact that all will be resurrected and delivered into the "glorious liberty of the sons of God" (Rom 8:21). The special dispensation for those who believe refers to the joy of the fellowship with God in this life for those who follow Chirst as disciples.

Todd

[Paidion]

Todd, you still believe the judgments of God are for this life only?

Do not our observations reveal that many in this life go on sinning grievously throughout their whole lives with no apparent judgments upon them?

Job's friends believed Job's suffering was the result of his sin, but Job know that many sinners get along fine in life:

In the thought of one who is at ease there is contempt for misfortune; it is ready for those whose feet slip. The tents of robbers are at peace, and those who provoke God are secure, who bring their god in their hand. Job 12: 5,6

[Todd]

Todd, you still believe the judgments of God are for this life only?

Do not our observations reveal that many in this life go on sinning grievously throughout their whole lives with no apparent judgments upon them?

Job's friends believed Job's suffering was the result of his sin, but Job know that many sinners get along fine in life:

In the thought of one who is at ease there is contempt for misfortune; it is ready for those whose feet slip. The tents of robbers are at peace, and those who provoke God are secure, who bring their god in their hand. Job 12: 5,6

Paidion,

I still strongly lean that way, but humbly admit I could be wrong. What happens after this life will remain a mystery. To me, the Bible is not very clear on the subject as evidenced by the many views by learned men/women. But I can say with some degree of confidence is what I have seen and experienced in my life, that God judges and punishes those who choose sin over righteousness. We might not see any external evidence of God's punishments as they may only be manifest internally as anxiety and a guilty conscience through the conviction of the Holy Spirit. But I believe no sin goes unpunished.

It could be that in Job's time God's punishments were not the same as they are now. I think that a change took place on the Day of Pentecost with the arrival of the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist, speaking of the Holy Spirit's impending arrival, said, "who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" He then spoke of the Baptism of Fire and God's judgments of burning the chaff. I see this as the working of the Holy Spirit against sin in the heart each person.

God's punishments are motivated out of Love. He calls each soul to repentance through active participation in each man's heart. This is the work of the Holy Spirit in the world (John 16:8).

According to the traditional view, God punishes people after death when there is no hope of repentance. That makes no sense to me. The common UR view, that God never gives up and continues to convict the soul of man after death until all repent, makes much more sense and may indeed be correct.

Todd

[Paidion]

Thanks, Todd.

One other point that came to mind. There are many people (and I personally know of a couple of cases) who on their death bed curse God and express much anger and hatred toward God and toward all people. They die in total rebellion. It seems inconceivable that, immediately after their death or resurrection as the case may be, God will simply welcome them into heaven as His dear children.