I Timothy 4:10 and Universal Reconciliation

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TK
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Re: I Timothy 4:10 and Universal Reconciliation

Post by TK » Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:51 pm

Hi Rick--

i'm here- taking this all in. i appreciate all the exegesis and discussion.

i was wondering (at the time of my initial post) if the greek for word for "especially" might have been better translated as, well something else. but apparently it cannot be.

TK

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RickC
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Re: I Timothy 4:10 and Universal Reconciliation

Post by RickC » Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:58 pm

Hello Don,
You wrote:Thank you, Rick, for your further explanation. Your argument seems to rest on the notion that believers in universal reconciliation hold that:
2. God saves people now in a "special pre-death way" as is reflected in the phrase:
especially of believers.
That idea had never occurred to me until I read it in your post. I never considered the time frame as linked to the "especially".

As long as I have believed in UR, I have held that this "especially" referred to the fact that those who believe are in the process of being saved from sin now and thus are able to escape that severe correction which God will bring upon those who reject Him.

I also held that the "especially" included the rewards of those who believe, on which the others will miss out (as Steve has explained).
You're welcome.

I now recall that Thomas Talbott's usage of 1 Tim 4:10 was posted on the old forum, possibly on the 1 Tim 4:10 thread. Talbott uses the verse to argue philosophically for the UR view. I'm sure you're familiar with his thought.

As is apparent, I haven't remembered everything that was posted on the old thread. I know I expressed my positions from the text itself exegetically, while the other UR poster(s) {I don't think you were there, Don} were using the verse philosophically, like Talbott does.

So it wound up as my Non-UR position expressed as what I thought Paul was saying: no more, no less, Vs. UR philosophical arguments based on possible interpretations what Paul wrote. In this sense, we weren't really "on the same page."

Re: 2., above.
All Christians believe we are saved now as God's own "special" people. In this sense we are saved uniquely as being set apart from among all people who don't believe. This was all Paul wrote or "had in mind" 1 Tim 4:10: no more, no less. Non-URs believe: There is one eschatological age of salvation, the present age, wherein God is saving His own special {or elect} people. And, of course, we Non-URs think Paul taught this also...but not to debate it.

At any rate, since we were coming from different angles of argumentation on the old thread — philosophical as opposed to exegetical — the discussion ended.
We simply disagreed and moved on....

Thanks, :)
Last edited by RickC on Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I Timothy 4:10 and Universal Reconciliation

Post by RickC » Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:55 pm

TK wrote:Hi Rick--

i'm here- taking this all in. i appreciate all the exegesis and discussion.

i was wondering (at the time of my initial post) if the greek for word for "especially" might have been better translated as, well something else. but apparently it cannot be.

TK
Hi TK

You're welcome.

On the old forum, it was cool to learn about the difference between books {or scrolls} and parchments. This was something of an aside {or fringe benefit} to Paul's usage of malista...{textual criticism stuff}.

On your first post you had:

This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers. (NLT)

The NLT isn't a very literal translation nor among the most literal translations {which I usually prefer}. But "and particularly" is an acceptable rendering of malista: "especially, specially, chiefly, in particular, most {or mostly} of all, more than anything {or anyone} else."

Actually, the NLT, though it is more of a "thought for thought" translation; it is about the best translation in some cases. Malistally, ;), for Romans! Seriously. I've quoted from it many times in book of Romans studies on the web. NLT is sometimes surprisingly accurate to the Greek: Who Knew? Check out Romans in NLT some time.

Come to think of it, the NLT may be the best translation of 1 Tim 4:10.

Anyway, TK, thanks for bringing 1 Tim 4:10 up.
It refreshed my memory and led me to resort {organize} my Word docs.
Take care, :)

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Homer
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Re: I Timothy 4:10 and Universal Reconciliation

Post by Homer » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:43 am

Paidion,

Throughout this interminable discussion you have made this claim and others, in effect, the same:
That influence will certainly include the very severe judgment in Gehenna, which may take many ages for some (or all) the people who go there. I am sure this judgment will differ in intensity, according to one's opportunity to know Christ. But we can trust God to be perfectly just in that matter. God's influence may also include (in my opinion) the proclamation of the "everlasting" gospel to those in Gehenna, of the fully mature "sons of God" for whom creation is groaning. I emphasize, it will be through each individual's choice. God will not force it upon anyone.
Correct me if I mischaracterize your position, but I must assume from this statement and previous similar ones you have made that you would agree the punishment in hell will be more severe and much longer lasting than that used by man upon earth, such as water-boarding, electrical shock to private parts, pulling out fingernails, etc. etc. Do you consider those tortured in this manner, when they confess or give the desired information, to have done so by their own choice and not by force? Do you think that they just decide "of their own free will" to 'fess up"? Your whole scenario seems highly implausable, at best.

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Re: I Timothy 4:10 and Universal Reconciliation

Post by steve7150 » Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:49 pm

That influence will certainly include the very severe judgment in Gehenna, which may take many ages for some (or all) the people who go there. I am sure this judgment will differ in intensity, according to one's opportunity to know Christ. But we can trust God to be perfectly just in that matter. God's influence may also include (in my opinion) the proclamation of the "everlasting" gospel to those in Gehenna, of the fully mature "sons of God" for whom creation is groaning. I emphasize, it will be through each individual's choice. God will not force it upon anyone.


Paidion, Re the expression "every tongue shall confess Christ as Lord" does the greek word for "confess" mean a voluntary confession? And re "torment" i think you have said it's like the refining of gold therefore do we really know what this entails considering that Paul said that it's the goodness of God that brings men to repentance. What would torture actually accomplish whether eternal or millions of years?
Lastly back to "aionios" isn't this word the adjective of "aion" meaning pertaining to the age or "age abiding" as Rotherham's translates therefore if it pertains to the age , does your opinion that the LOF may be millions of years have real scriptural support?

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Re: I Timothy 4:10 and Universal Reconciliation

Post by Paidion » Fri Oct 31, 2008 8:08 pm

quote wrote:Correct me if I mischaracterize your position, but I must assume from this statement and previous similar ones you have made that you would agree the punishment in hell will be more severe and much longer lasting than that used by man upon earth, such as water-boarding, electrical shock to private parts, pulling out fingernails, etc. etc. Do you consider those tortured in this manner...
Yes, Homer, the correction will certainly be much longer in duration, but I doubt that it will be more severe than those procedures you described. I would not describe it at torture. I don't believe it is God's nature to torture people. A Godly father does not torture his children. Yet his correction of them may be quite severe.

True, we read in translations about those in the Lake of Fire being "tormented". But the verb in Greek is "βασανιζω". The "Online Bible" Greek Lexicon gives its primary meaning as "to test metals by a touch stone, a black siliceous stone to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced by rubbing it with either metal." We get the English "basal" from this Greek word. The word came to mean testing of virtually anything in the sense of undergoing a test. For example in Mark 6:48, the disciples were testing the oars when the wind was against them, that is, the oars had to be put to the test. Were the oars sufficient in working against such a wind? Or were the disciples "tormenting" or "torturing" their oars? A second example ---- 2 Peter 2:8. Did righteous Lot "torture" himself by living among the Sodomites? Or was he putting himself to the test by so doing? Was the test whether or not he would remain righteous under these conditions? Perhaps the answer to this one is not quite so clear. Yet being put to the test seems to work fine for this case.

The words of the demons to the Lord, may not have been, "Have you come to torment us before the time?" Again it may have been, "Have you come to put us to the test before the time?"

So the testings in Gehenna may be tantamount to the Lord's checking the people there to see whether they are yet ready to repent.
... when they confess or give the desired information, to have done so by their own choice and not by force? Do you think that they just decide "of their own free will" to 'fess up"? Your whole scenario seems highly implausable, at best.
There are plenty of forces even in this life which affect our choices, but don't force our wills.
For example, it is my will not to wear a seat belt. I believe that I am in greater danger in case of an accident if I am wearing one. I am free to choose not to wear one. However, the consequence, if caught, is to pay a heavy fine. So I choose to wear one in order to avoid the fine. Does that mean that I have been FORCED to wear a seat belt? The influence to wear one is pretty strong --- but it's still an influence. Nobody sat next to me in the car and put my seat belt on to me, while the passenger in the back held me down. No, I wasn't forced. Llikewise, the influences in Gehenna will be strong, but will not be force. He who goes to Gehenna, will always be able to refuse, if he so chooses. I think also the discomfort will be far less in the case of those who have never had the opportunity in this life to submit to the Lordship of Jesus. Many of them will not have even heard of Jesus! It will not take as much to correct such people as those who have resisted Him throughout this life. It will probably take much less to convince a farmer who has always just been trying to earn a decent living and has been kind to his neighbour, than what it will take to convince Adolph Hitler.

Steve 7150, I intend to answer your questions in my next post.
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: I Timothy 4:10 and Universal Reconciliation

Post by Homer » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:22 pm

Paidion,

You wrote:
Yes, Homer, the correction will certainly be much longer in duration, but I doubt that it will be more severe than those procedures you described.
So you admit it could be as severe asthose forms of torture I mentioned, and of longer duration? I realize you are only speculating.

And you wrote:
True, we read in translations about those in the Lake of Fire being "tormented". But the verb in Greek is "βασανιζω". The "Online Bible" Greek Lexicon gives its primary meaning as "to test metals by a touch stone, a black siliceous stone to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced by rubbing it with either metal." We get the English "basal" from this Greek word. The word came to mean testing of virtually anything in the sense of undergoing a test.
But if hell is a sort of reform school for wayward children, then the "lake of fire" figure would seem entirely inapt. Why do you think the warnings about the fate of the lost were designed to engender great fear in the hearers?

By the way, I came across an article that lends some support to some of your ideas, thought you might enjoy it. See his discussion of Matthew 5:17-48 in particular:

http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/artic ... ingay.html

God bless, Homer

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Re: I Timothy 4:10 and Universal Reconciliation

Post by Paidion » Sat Nov 01, 2008 4:13 pm

Steve7150 wrote:Paidion, Re the expression "every tongue shall confess Christ as Lord" does the greek word for "confess" mean a voluntary confession?
This is a compound Greek word "ἐξομολογεω" consisting the root word "λογεω" which means to express oneself in speech, "ἐξ" (transliteration "ex") which means "out of" (The English word "exit" comes from "ἐξ"), and "ὁμο" (translateration "homo") which means "the same" (The English word "homogenized" comes from this. In homogenized milk, the milk and cream can no longer be separated; they are "made the same").

I'm not sure why the first prefix is used in the word. But looking at the rest of it, and its context, I believe "ἐξομολογεω" to mean "express the same" or "agree". So in Phillipians 2:10, 11 we have:

... that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue agree that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I don't think a person can be forced to agree with anything. He may be forced to SAY that he agrees, but not to actually agree to that which he does not really believe. When a person truly agrees that Jesus Christ is Lord, then he is saved.

... because, if you confess ("ὁμολογεω") with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9
And re "torment" i think you have said it's like the refining of gold therefore do we really know what this entails considering that Paul said that it's the goodness of God that brings men to repentance. What would torture actually accomplish whether eternal or millions of years?
The word translated "torment" actually means "testing" as I showed in a previous post in this thread. Torture alone probably wouldn't accomplish anything. I doubt that it would "satisfy" God, by accomplishing His legal requirements (if He had any) for past sin. God is not interested in dealing with past sin, but with present reality. It's our present live sins with which God is concerned. He wants to change our natures so that we will not wish to do these things anymore.
Lastly back to "aionios" isn't this word the adjective of "aion" meaning pertaining to the age or "age abiding" as Rotherham's translates therefore if it pertains to the age , does your opinion that the LOF may be millions of years have real scriptural support?
I think that "aionios" means either "permanent" or "going from age to age."

I didn't invent the idea that those in the Lake of Fire (at least some of them) may be there for millions of years. Here is how I came to that conclusion:

...and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tested for ages of ages. Revelation 20:10

How long is an age? Well, the millenial age will be 1000 years. The various ages may vary in length, but let's assume an age is 1000 years. Some ages may have been much more than that, but it is unlikely that any of them have been or will be LESS than that. So using that MINIMUM, one age of ages would be 1000 periods of 1000 years each ---- that is, a million years. Thus "ages of ages" would be more than one age of ages; it would be at least two ages of ages ---- two million years. We don't know how many ages of ages, this might be.
If it were 800 ages of ages, this would translate into 800 million years.

The text states that it will be the Devil, the Beast (Antichrist) and the False Prophet who will be tested in the Lake of Fire for ages of ages. Others may be there for a much shorter duration. We do not know. This has not been revealed.

Origen said, "Little by little and individually the correction and purification will be accomplished. Some will lead the way and climb to the heights with swifter progress, others following right behind them; yet ohters will be FAR behind. Thus multitudes of individuals and countless orders, who once were enemies, will advance and reconcile themselves to God; and so at length the last enemy will be reached...
Paidion

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Re: I Timothy 4:10 and Universal Reconciliation

Post by steve7150 » Sat Nov 01, 2008 11:52 pm

I think that "aionios" means either "permanent" or "going from age to age."

I didn't invent the idea that those in the Lake of Fire (at least some of them) may be there for millions of years. Here is how I came to that conclusion:

...and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tested for ages of ages. Revelation 20:10



Paidion, This may seem inconsequential but if 98% of humanity ends up in the LOF the definition of "aionios" is important. I no nothing about ancient greek but have been told emphatically that aionios is not the plural of aion but is referring to a quality of the aion because it is an adjective of the noun. Ages of ages is the plural of age and a vastly different definition then the adjective of the noun "aion." They are very different definitions , just as the translation "eternal" is very different. Why such differences on such an important greek word?

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Re: I Timothy 4:10 and Universal Reconciliation

Post by Paidion » Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:56 am

It is true that "aionio" is the adjectival form of "aion" (it is also used as an adverb in Phlemon 1:15). I have also encountered those who think the word describes quality rather than temporality. I think that view is mistaken.

Philemon 1:15 Perhaps this is why he was separated from you for a while, that you might have him back permanently.

I translated the word "permanently" in this passage since it indicates that Onesimus would not run away again since he had become a disciple. How could the word be translated if it referred to some quality?

To receive aeonian correction ("aeonian" is an English word derived from the Greek "aionion") is to receive correction which goes from age to age, that is, which lasts for ages.

According to Websters Unabridged Dictionary, the English word "aeonian" means "lasting for eons". The word "eon" is defined as "a period of immense duration".

So there appears to be little or no difference in that which is "aional" and that which lasts for ages of ages.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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