Is UR fair to those who believe NOW?

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steve
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Re: Is UR fair to those who believe NOW?

Post by steve » Wed Apr 15, 2009 7:15 pm

Hi Bubba,

You wrote:
Steve, it appears to me that "the natural man without the Spirit" can not understand in respect to the verses preceding verse 14 are very contextual.
I know that it appears so to you, and I even understand why it does. What you did not notice in the context of the passage is the phrase (in verse 6): "We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature..." This message for the "mature" is what Paul refers to as the "wisdom of God in a mystery" (v.7) and "things of the Spirit of God" (v.14). These are the things which Paul says that neither natural (v.14) nor carnal (3:1) men can grasp, because it requires a level of spiritual maturity to conceptualize them.

These "spiritual things" do not refer to the Gospel itself, which Paul summarizes in the phrase, "Christ, and Him crucified" (v.2). This simple message, Paul says, was possible for even carnal and immature people (like the Corinthians) to receive (vv.9-11, 13; 3:1).

The whole thought of 1 Corinthians 2 is that there are basic things (like the Gospel), which Paul also calls "milk" (3:2), and which represent the things that even unspiritual men, like those in Corinth, have the capacity to digest. But there are also what Paul calls the "deep things of God" (v.10), or "solid food" (3:2), or "things of the Spirit of God" (v.14)—which none but spiritual men can really receive.

Paul's complaint, in this chapter and the next, is that the Corinthians were not such spiritual men as to allow him to impart such "mysterious wisdom" to them (3:1-2), and all he could give them was what any unspiritual person might receive—just Christ, and Him crucified (2:1-2).

Thus it is not within Paul's range of concerns, in the passage, to say that the Gospel cannot be received other than by spiritual men. In fact, it affirms the opposite: that the Corinthians, though unspiritual, had in fact received the Gospel—but little else! Paul's point is that only spiritual men can be entrusted with the "deep things of God," which Paul enjoys teaching to more mature audiences, and would like to have shared with the Corinthians, had they been capable of being taught them.

As for Romans 3, there is a standard way of reading Paul's train of thought that has, for many generations, influenced commentators to interpret the collage of Old Testament texts, to which Paul appeals in verses 10-18, in a Calvinistic manner. The standard assumption sees Paul's writing Romans as an evangelistic tract (strangely, since the letter is addressed to those who are already "saints in Rome").

In chapters one-through-three (so goes the default interpretation), Paul is laying down the first two of the "four spiritual laws." Paul is trying to convict his audience of sin (again, strangely, since they are believers!). On this view, Paul's main goal is to prevent any human being from being able to deny that he is a sinner—so he implicates the Gentiles (in chapter one), the Jews (in chapter two), and combines the two, in chapter three.

The litany of verses from Isaiah and the Psalms, found in 3:10-18, is read as if it is establishing Paul's imagined thesis, namely, that ever single man is a sinner.

Of course, if these verses are being quoted to make that specific point, then they establish far more than merely that every man is a sinner. They go much further—declaring that every man is a monster of iniquity. Not a single soul seeks after God. Not one does anything good. They are all deceivers, as dangerous to their victims as is a deadly viper. Their feet all run to shed innocent blood! Wherever they go, they spread misery and destruction, and there is no fear of God to be found among them!

Now, if Paul truly is trying to say such things about every unbeliever, so be it. I will then have to assume that every unbeliever runs around shedding the blood of others, fatally deceiving them, spreading destruction and misery in their train. I will further have to assume that everyone who ever apparently feared God, sought God or did anything "good" were either fakes, or were regenerated. Of course, this is precisely what Paul would be affirming, on the standard view of Romans, and those who are wedded to that view find ingenious explanations that turn seemingly harmless non-Christian grandmothers and philanthropists into secret murderers—and every religious person, who appears to be seeking God (including the psalmists that Paul cites) into hypocrites.

There is no reason to make such uncharitable assumptions about our fellow earth-dwellers, unless we feel compelled by our view of Romans-one-through-three to do so. No wonder so many, seeing it this way, have been so willing to consign all unregenerate people to eternal flames of hell, and to see every unbeliever as an enemy of God worthy only of our contempt! The fact that there are some non-disciples who would "give a cup of cold water" to a disciple, and thereby secure an inalienable reward does not easily fit this scenario. Neither does reality as any of us have ever known it.

When we look again at Romans, and see the pastoral intentions of Paul toward the church in Rome, we can stop transmogrifying this church epistle into an evangelistic tract. The church of Rome clearly had problems, like all of the other churches Paul wrote to. It was his pastoral concern for the well-being (especially the unity) of the church that motivated Paul to write most (perhaps all) of his epistles—including this one.

In the Roman church, as in most churches, there were both Jewish and Gentile believers. In Rome, there was a special tension between these two groups, and Paul wrote intending to remedy that malady in the Body.

The cause of the tension came from both sides. On the one side, it has been convincingly argued, the Gentile believers were not fully welcoming the returning Jewish saints, who had lately arrived back in Rome from their earlier banishment under Claudius. The Gentile Christians, who had held, for some years, a racial monopoly on Roman Christianity until then, were "despising" the Jewish believers, who were coming back in among them and bringing with them their traditional practices like the observance of dietary codes and holy days (Rom.14-15). It seems that Gentile believers were arrogating themselves against the Jewish believers, perhaps on the basis that most Jews were unbelievers, whereas the Gentiles had been "grafted in" to replace them (Rom.11:17-22). Paul rebukes these Gentiles for their uncharitable and unhumble attitudes.

But there were problems on the Jewish side as well. The mentality of the Jew at the time (including many Jewish believers), was that there was some special status in being a Jew, as opposed to being a Gentile. They still thought that circumcision and the possession of the Torah set the Jewish race, as a class, above the uncircumcised races who lacked the Torah. This situation might be seen as parallel to white Christians, in the first generation after the liberation of slaves in the South (who had been taught all their lives that blacks were sub-human) being in a position to accept black Christians into their assemblies—but still harboring secret (or not so secret) attitudes of superiority over them.

Paul crafts his argument of the first four chapters of Romans so as to eliminate this Jewish racial snobbery. In chapter one, he starts discussing the extreme wickedness of certain people (he does not specify race) who suppress the truth that they have received. Though every thing he says in chapter one applies as much to certain Jews as it does to certain Gentiles, Paul assumes that his Jewish readers will think he is describing the idolatrous pagans, and will track favorably with him.

However, in chapter two, he tells them that he is talking about Jews as much as about Gentiles. He points out that, though the Jews are circumcised and have the commandments of God, the disobedience of many Jews to those commandments (Paul gives, as examples, "stealing," "adultery," "robbing temples"—vv.21-22) practically nullifies any benefit of their being Jewish (that is, their circumcision).

In chapter three, then, he asks rhetorically whether the Jews are entirely lacking any advantage over Gentiles. Paul's answer is, they indeed have always had a great advantage, in their possession of Torah (v.2), but they have miserably failed to live up to their privileges, and are thus "no better" than the Gentiles (v.9). In order to prove this point (i.e., that being a Jew does not make one any better than a Gentile), Paul quotes a string of Old Testament verses (vv.10-18). Of course, there is no way that these verses could make this particular point, unless they are verses describing the behavior of Jews that are no better than Gentiles. Thus, Paul's point in citing them is to assert that these statements from the Old Testament are not describing Gentiles, but wicked Jews (the context of most of the verses would confirm this), showing that, however bad pagans may be, the Jews are capable of being every bit their equals in wickedness.

If there is any question that Paul's implication is that the wicked men described in vv.10-18 are Jewish men, all doubt is dispelled by his concluding remark— verse 19: "Now we know that whatever the law says (that is, the verses cited in vv.10-18), it says to those that are under the law (that is, the Jews), that every mouth (the mouths of Jews as well as the pagans) may be stopped."

Now the common current practice of particularizing Paul's statements to apply to "every last man" may serve the modern evangelist in presenting the "Romans Road" to the unbeliever, but it would be counter-productive for Paul to attempt, by his chosen argument, to make that point to his target audience. Why? Because there would be some Jews as well as some Gentiles who could honestly say, "I have been faithful to my wife, so your reference to adultery does not apply to me, and I have not robbed temples, bowed to images, nor committed homosexual acts, as have those you have described. Therefore, my self-righteousness remains unscathed by your arguments!"

Paul's target is not the man (Jew or Gentile) who is claiming to have never sinned, since Paul's argument, as he presented it, seems to mention only exceptional sins, which some readers could see as belonging to others, and not to themselves. Paul's target is the Jew, who (although he does not necessarily deny that he may have sinned, now and again) believes that being in the category of "the circumcised" places him in a special class (unlike the Gentiles, a lesser breed without the law) and in a group less deserving of condemnation. The core of Paul's argument, in chapters one-through-four, would be as follows:

Okay, you say you are a circumcised Jew, and you think that that in itself places you in a favored light before God. However, it is evident that (though no one contests the fact that pagans do detestable things) some Jews have done equally horrendous deeds—no less horrendous than the very worst that the pagans have done (chapter 1, with 2:1)! Now, if a circumcised Jew is capable of being as wicked as an uncircumcised pagan—how can one pretend that being circumcised and Jewish represents a condition in itself that is superior to being uncircumcised and Gentile? Clearly, God is no respecter of persons (2:11). He rewards those who do good and those who do evil, according to their respective deeds—not how much skin has been removed from their reproductive organs (2:5-10)! Furthermore, an uncircumcised Christian Gentile, who keeps the commandments from his heart (2:14-15), shows more signs of the right kind of "circumcision" (2:28-29) than does a circumcised Jew who otherwise breaks the law (2:26-27). It is clear that one is justified by faith, regardless of being circumcised (3:21—4:7). After all, the very righteousness of our ancestor Abraham was declared at a time when he himself was still an uncircumcised Gentile (4:9-22).

Thus, Roman 3:10-18 is not making a point about the sinfulness of every individual, but it is making a statement about the exceptional sinfulness of some Jews, no less than that of some pagans (whose sinfulness goes without saying among his audience). That all people (including every last individual) are sinners is also a biblical teaching—and observable in any group of people that one may wish to scrutinize. But that is not Paul's point.

If he is trying to say that all people are like those described in these verses, then he would apparently be making an inaccurate claim—or at the very least, would not be making a convincing argument, since most unbelievers could legitimately deny being homosexuals who have made and bowed down to images of animals (as per chapter one), or being eager to commit murder, leaving only carnage in their wake (as in Romans 3:10-18). To establish that any circumcised Jew might be found committing such sins is enough to establish Paul's intended point here.

When our interpretations of scripture end up affirming things that anyone can see to be false, it is time to question our interpretations. In this case, that turns out to be a fruitful venture.

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Paidion
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Re: Is UR fair to those who believe NOW?

Post by Paidion » Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:20 pm

I see this matter exactly as Steve does. I wish I could articulate it as well.

By the way, Bubba, I believe in the reconciliation of all to God just as you do, and Steve is seriously considering it as a possibility. However, I believe each person, of his own free will, shall freely choose to submit to Christ and become His disciple. If I understand you correctly, you would disagree, believing that God sovereignly chooses every one and takes whatever steps necessary to cause each person to come under the authority of Christ, independently of any choices which that person might make.
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Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Re: Is UR fair to those who believe NOW?

Post by SteveF » Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:03 pm

Very well written Steve. Thanks!

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Re: Is UR fair to those who believe NOW?

Post by mikew » Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:36 pm

I'm glad I looked at this topic now.

The evaluation of Rom 3 by Steve has caused me to consider that the words of vv 10 to 20 were directed against Jewish reliance upon the Law. Before reading his evaluation I was considering how chapter 2 showed that the Gentiles were under a law themselves based on the conscience of each man.
Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. (15) They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them.
The difference I still have is that I found that the audience was essentially only Gentile believers. The purpose of the passage then was to show that the Jews had no grounds in boasting or promoting the law over and against faith.

Sorry though that I have not contributed so much to the UR discussion
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steve
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Re: Is UR fair to those who believe NOW?

Post by steve » Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:17 am

I appreciate the kind reviews. However, they were made of the unedited version, which I hastily posted before running off to my Wednesday night lecture. When I came home to proof-read it, I was astonished at the number of typographical and punctuation errors in it (most of which, I hope, are now corrected). Blessings to you who overlooked them and made kind remarks anyway!

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Re: Is UR fair to those who believe NOW?

Post by Bubba » Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:44 am

JOHN W. GREGSON writes:
God's Spirit is the great Converter of souls, Charles Spurgeon said, "The power that is in the Gospel does not lie in the eloquence of the preacher, otherwise men would be the converters of souls, nor does it lie in the preacher's learning, otherwise it would consist in the wisdom of men. We might preach until out tongues rotted, till we would exhaust our lungs and die, but never a soul would be converted unless the Holy Spirit be with the Word of God to give it the power to convert the soul" (MacArthur, p. 57).
6 - 8 Paul now writes further on the power of the Holy Spirit. Paul may speak philosophically with the mature Christians, but new-born babes need "...the sincere milk of the word" (I Peter 2:2). Of course, some Christians are simply old babes and unable in spite of their years to digest solid spiritual food. This wisdom, however, is not the wisdom of this world or age. God's philosophy of the gospel of Christ as revealed in the Greek New Testament is holistic; it is mysterious and is understood by faith only. God's incarnation is the heart of the gospel message. It is seldom understood by the princes or elite of this world. Had the ones in authority known Who the Lord was, surely they would not have crucified Him. Those in authority did not know then, nor do they know now; however, those of us who are saved know the Lord Jesus experimentally. Furthermore, "God is sovereign in executing his plan to create the universe and to save mankind from sin. He destined his people for eternal glory. When Paul writes that before this earth was created, God already had formed a plan to save mankind for the glory of those whom he redeems, we stand in awe and wonder. Paul speaks of God's wisdom that appears in a mystery. Our human minds are unable to grasp fully the importance of God's love for sinners, because the concept before all time is too profound for us. And the glory which we receive partially in this life but wholly in eternity it too wonderful for us. We confess that we cannot adequately appropriate this truth in our mind" (Kistemaker, p. 83).
In verse 7 Paul writes, "...we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the ages unto our glory..." What is the mystery of which Paul writes? Morgan states that a mystery in the New Testament always means something undiscoverable by the activity of the human intellect, but revealed, so that human intellect can understand. A mystery is something which has been revealed, so that it may be apprehended by the mind of man, and by the human intellect" (pp. 48, 49). In his letter to Timothy (I, 3:16) Paul wrote, "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the nations, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
9 - 16 Paul quotes from Isaiah (64:4) which reads, "For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him who waiteth on him." God's thoughts and ways are so much higher and mightier than man, but "God hath revealed (apekalupsen from apokalupto) or disclosed them unto us by his spirit, yea, the deep things of God." "What science nor philosophy can discover, God reveals to the believer by the agency of the Holy Spirit...This is how Peter knew that Jesus was the Messiah (Matthew 16:17), which is remarkable parallel to I Corinthians 2:9, 10 (Yeager, p. 339). These things are spiritually discerned; all the more reason the soul-winner should be patience in his instructions to the lost sinner.

“Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. God became a man so that He could express Himself to man. This is illustrated most vividly in the story of the Indian Brahman who could not understand why (or how) God became Incarnate, until he was walking in his estate one day and came upon a huge ant-hill. As the sun cast his own shadow on the ant-hill, the ants began scampering into the hole for safety. He was somewhat amazed at the ant's behavior, thinking, I am not going to harm the ants, but how could I tell them my motives. "I would need to become an ant, yet keep my human personality." Ah, that is what God did; He became a man in the Lord Jesus Christ, yet God kept His own personality. Later the Indian was gloriously saved as God's Holy Spirit carried home to his heart the message of the Incarnation. Just as the lower forms of life cannot think on man's level, so man in his sinful condition cannot think on God's level. Jesus became a Son of man, so that we might become sons of God. God chose to reveal Himself to His creation; man would never have discovered or by searching found God.
The minister's language is dictated by the congregation to whom he is speaking. The saved understand what the preacher is saying; however, unless the Holy Spirit quickens the sinner's heart, he cannot understand the things of God. Human philosophy is over the head of the majority of people in one's congregation. Spiritual things are understood by spiritual people. This must have been the thinking of Jesus when He said, "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine..." (Matthew 7:6). "But the natural (psuchikos), unregenerate or sensual man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually (pneumatikos) discerned (verse 14)." The word discerned (anakrinetai) is an interesting word; it also means searched or judged or possibly examined or investigated. The same word is translated judged in verse 15. "Spiritual matters are known only by totally complete, holistic research" (Yeager, p. 347). Men laugh at Christianity,--not because it is foolish, but because they are.
This chapter concludes, "For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ." No one is able to think like Jehovah God thinks; no one can put it all together (sumbibasei) or prove logically what God is thinking. Isaiah (40:12 - 17) asked some of the same questions using a bit of sarcasm. Isaiah wrote, "Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and measured out heaven with the span, and measured the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighted the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance? Who hath directed the Spirit of the Lord, or being his counselor, hath taught him? With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of justice, and taught him knowledge, and showed to him the way of understanding...To whom, then, will ye liken God? Or what likeness will ye compare unto him" (40:12, 13, 18). The Lord Jesus Christ is the "Piece" that makes the jig-saw puzzle of life complete.”

Steve, you may argue that spiritual things mentioned in verse 14 are not referring to the gospel, but I would have to say that you are wrong. Paul writes in Colossians 1:24ff, “Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. 25I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. 27To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.” Yes, the Corinthians were acting in a immature way as Gregson continues to state, “The Corinthians envying and strife led to divisions; some followed Paul and some Apollos. "The cause of their quarreling is that they attribute to men what belongs properly to God. Paul questions them, "Are ye not carnal (mere men) or walking in the ways of man?" Even though this was going on, it does not take away the fact, that to be a Christian at all, God must intervene first (see Ephesians 2:1-10). Their carnality was their quarreling and attributed to men, what right fully belong s to God, while their regenerate hearts was a product of Divine revelation in 1Corinthians 2:6-14.

The comment I would make on Romans 3:10-18, is that the chapters preceding include both Gentile and Jew. After Romans chapter 1 declaration against those who are not Jews we read in verse 1 of chapter 2, “1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things ‘ and then in verses 14 -16 of chapter 2 we read, “(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.” Then prior to Romans 3:10 we have verse 9, “What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.” What does under sin mean? I think it means under the curse of the Law which is death. The remedy is explained in Romans 3:21-24, “ But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.” Note there “is no difference”, both Jew and Gentile have fallen short.
It is difficult for me to imagine how one is able to read Romans chapters 9-11 and not see the Sovereign choice of God worked out in both the Jew and Gentile. The good news is that at the end of Romans chapter 11 we have;
“For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34"Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?j
35"Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?
36For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Peace, Bubba

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steve
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Re: Is UR fair to those who believe NOW?

Post by steve » Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:16 am

I'm sorry, Bubba, but I couldn't finish reading that mishmash of miscellaneous citations from people I don't know, affirming points I have heard all my life, and not a line of exegesis. The fact that it is all run together without obvious divisions makes it particularly hard to follow. If commentary without exegesis is what you find convincing, you are welcome to it, Bro. If someone wants to convince me of a viewpoint other than my own, I am interested in hearing, specifically, what they find unconvincing about my analysis. This usually requires some interaction with the text and its context—not mere quotations from preachers.

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Re: Is UR fair to those who believe NOW?

Post by Bubba » Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:45 am

Steve,
Obviously, I did not agree with what you call an exegesis of the passages of 1Cor. 2:14 and Romans 3:10-18, it seems more as your opinion, especially the comments of Romans 3. A good example would be “... those who are wedded to that view find ingenious explanations that turn seemingly harmless non-Christian grandmothers and philanthropists into secret murderers and every religious person who appears to be seeking God (including the Palmists that Paul sites)into hypocrites.” Is this exegesis Steve or a person who simply does not believe in the depravity of man? Granted you can write well, and my “mishmash of miscellaneous citations” was not to your liking, but was there nothing in these ramblings you could not contemplate? I do not know how to type, I am a search and peck guy, so when possible I tend to “cut and paste” those people who give a good reason for why they believe as they do, at least in my estimation.
The sovereignty of God thoughts probably belong in another thread and should not be argued here, but do you not find Romans 11 interesting, especially when God begins the chapter by placing a “stupor” upon Israel (using Old Testament Scripture) and then ending the chapter with “For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.”? The “that He may have mercy on them all” is what this thread is really about, would you not agree?
Grace, Bubba

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steve
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Re: Is UR fair to those who believe NOW?

Post by steve » Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:37 am

Hi Bubba,

Yes, that is what this thread is about.

I can sympathize with your not knowing proper typing technique. Believe it or not, I do not know how to type properly either. I "hunt and peck" too. I guess I just have had to do so much of it that I do so fairly rapidly. I make so many mistakes that I have to go back and edit some posts three or four times after I have posted them! It is because I am too hasty in posting the first draft without proofreading. I want to get my foot in the door of a dialogue before someone else grabs the spot.

One thing that would make your posts easier to read (from an aesthetic point of view) would be to put spaces between paragraphs. It makes it easier for the reader to know when a new thought is being introduced.

You wrote:
Obviously, I did not agree with what you call an exegesis of the passages of 1Cor. 2:14 and Romans 3:10-18, it seems more as your opinion, especially the comments of Romans 3. A good example would be “... those who are wedded to that view find ingenious explanations that turn seemingly harmless non-Christian grandmothers and philanthropists into secret murderers and every religious person who appears to be seeking God (including the Palmists that Paul sites)into hypocrites.” Is this exegesis Steve or a person who simply does not believe in the depravity of man?
No, the comment of mine that you quoted was not an example of my exegesis. That statement was not intended as exegesis, because it was not dealing with a particular verse or statement of scripture. It was dealing with the results of taking the wrong approach.

Nor was my statement that of a person who does not believe in the depravity of man. My task is to read the scriptures and understand what they mean. Then, perhaps, I can correctly understand what they teach, and do not teach, about the depravity of man.

Perhaps what I wrote would appear more like exegesis if you would take the time to look up the verses I cited in connection with the points I made, making an effort to follow Paul's flow of thought. Of course, we may be meaning different things by exegesis. Calvinists often think it primarily has to do with parsing Greek words and phrases. In that sense, much of my work is not exegesis. I use the word exegesis to mean the employment of every relevant hermeneutic to draw the author's intended meaning out of a passage. More often than not, Greek word parsing is not necessary for that purpose, so long as one is working with an adequate English translation and can follow an author's train of thought.

I see how Romans 11 can be used to support universal reconciliation. I do not see how it makes a case for Calvinistic soteriology. Paul tells us that God, as an act of judgment upon their rebellion, had turned the unbelieving Jews of Paul's generation over to a spirit of stupor...eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear (v.8). Jesus had previously revealed that this judgment of blindness had been brought upon that generation of Jews when He told HIs disciples why He spoke to such people in parables. It was so that they would not see and perceive, nor hear and understand (Matt.13:13-14). The mysteries of the kingdom were being hidden from them (Matt.13:11). Jesus said it was entirely their own fault, and that this judgment came upon them because "their eyes they have closed, lest they should see..." (Matt.13:15).

These were the same Jews to whom Paul referred in Romans 1:18, 28, that they "suppress the truth in their unrighteousness...therefore God gave them up to a reprobate mind;" like those mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:10-11, that they "receive not the love of the truth...therefore God shall send them strong delusion." He says that "wrath has come upon them to the uttermost" (1 Thessalonians 2:16; cf., Romans 1:18) because they were so vehement in suppressing the truth as to forbid Paul even to preach it to the Gentiles (1 Thessalonians 2:15-16).

This "wrath" that has come upon them to the uttermost is that "spirit of stupor" that Paul mentions in Romans 11, and the "veil [that] lies on their heart" in 2 Corinthians 3:15.

Everywhere, Jesus and Paul affirm that a special, judicial blindness had been imposed upon the first-century Jews who rejected Christ, which was going to result in their destruction in that generation. It is also made clear that this was done because of their rebellion, not because of some sovereign decree unrelated to their special demerit. This veil could be removed, Paul said, from any individual Jew who would turn to the Lord (2 Corinthians 3:16). Interestingly, he did not say that the veil had to be removed in order for them to turn to the Lord, but, rather, they had to turn to the Lord in order to have the veil removed. Apparently, Paul did not see even the presence of the veil as completely precluding their repentance.

This illustrates an important non-Calvinist truth. Namely, that God apparently believes people, in their natural state, are quite able to repent, unless He sends them a special blindness, or hardens their hearts, or conceals the message from them in parables, in order to prevent their repentance. Whereas the Calvinist says it requires a special, irresistible action on God's part to get one to repent, the Bible says that God must take special actions in order to prevent some people from repenting—and even then, some of them may repent and have the veil removed! Apparently, the God-given, human ability to choose is very strong...which, no doubt, accounts for the astonishing fact that so many, by their stubborn choice, succeed in resisting the grace of God for a lifetime.

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Homer
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Re: Is UR fair to those who believe NOW?

Post by Homer » Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:27 am

To Bubba & Paidion,

Bubba - I see you are located in Fresno. I grew up in Sanger, lived there 28 years!

I find it interesting to see the universalist position advocated by a Calvinist and an Arminian. It should not be so surprising though since both are forms of determinism. I am curious how a Calvinist/universalist believes conversion occurs post-mortem. Is it the same as in this life, i.e., God regenerates the people in hell and then they irresistably believe? If so, why would He withhold this regenration during this life? Why not regenerate them now?

As to Paidion's odd idea of free-will, people are thrown into hell and suffer enormously until they yield and repent, and all the while they maintain freedom of choice. This is like saying the terrorist at Guantanamo freely chose to give up his secrets while being given the water board treatment. Well, it is not actually like it, for in hell they are endlessly tormented for as long as necessary, perhaps thousands of years.

Perhaps you can both explain how this conversion occurs in your system, if I misunderstand.

God bless, Homer

P.S. Bubba, I hope Fresno is not too hot this summer. Last year we lived there it was 100 or more for 57 days. I can remember walking out to the King's River to fish when I was a teen when it was 115 degrees. Didn't think much of it at the time!

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