Is UR fair to those who believe NOW?

[Paidion]

Paul. By suggesting that this parable may be applicable, I wasn't implying that it concerned both "saved" and "unsaved" people. I was trying to show that just as those who worked in the vineyard all day thought it was unfair that those who joined in the work at the last hour received the same wages, so people today who have become disciples of Christ in this life, think it unfair if those who never become disciples in this life ultimately receive the same reward (heaven) as they.

[Homer]

Paidion, et al,

I fail to see how the parable of the workers in the vineyard has any relation to the question being discussed. The parable says nothing about workers who show up when the day has ended.

John 9:4 (New King James Version)
4. I must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work.

[steve7150]

any rate, in reference to UR, one person made the following statement (in so many words): "It doesnt seem fair that a person who makes the choice to follow Christ now will, in the end, receive no greater reward than those who reject Christ in this lifetime and only accept him after ages of "correction" in hell."




What sane person wants to spend ages in hell? It never ceases to amaze me that some people think anything other then eternal punishment is no punishment.

[Danny]

Really? You don't see the relationship between the parable and the question being discussed? It didn't strike me that Paidion was attempting to apply the parable literally as an apologetic for Universal Salvation. Rather, he was making the more nuanced point that God's sense of what is fair seems to be different from ours. This has everything to do with the question at hand. Whereas we tend to think of fairness on the level of quid pro quo, God has revealed that He is more concerned with Love, Mercy, Compassion and Kindness with the end goal not of destruction and estrangement but of restoration and reconciliation.

[Homer]

What sane person wants to spend ages in hell? It never ceases to amaze me that some people think anything other then eternal punishment is no punishment.

Once the Universalist has disposed of the finality of the judgement, is is not possible to determine from sciptures the duration of the temporal punishment (or correction) envisioned. All that is left is speculation and conjecture. You are at sea without oar or rudder. I challenge any of you to show, from scripture, where there is any necessity that the "confession of Jesus as Lord" will be delayed at all. Rather oddly, most of you seem to find eternal separation from God as intolerable while having no qualms about thousands of years of agonizing correction. Strange.

[Paidion]

Rather oddly, most of you seem to find eternal separation from God as intolerable while having no qualms about thousands of years of agonizing correction. Strange.

Not so strange, Homer. There's an eternity of difference.

[steve]

Hi Homer,

You wrote:

Once the Universalist has disposed of the finality of the judgement, it is not possible to determine from sciptures the duration of the temporal punishment (or correction) envisioned. All that is left is speculation and conjecture. You are at sea without oar or rudder.

But it seems to me that it is God, not us, who is in the position to mete out the relative punishments. Perhaps that is why He gives us no guidebook telling how much each person should be or will be punished. All that matters is that God knows what is just, and that He will ultimately do what is just.

I challenge any of you to show, from scripture, where there is any necessity that the "confession of Jesus as Lord" will be delayed at all.

Speaking only theoretically, it seems to me that it would be nothing short of wonderful (for God and for all concerned), if there was no delay whatsoever! However, it would be necessary for any such confession to be genuine and sincere. That might take some dealings, requiring some amount of time.

Rather oddly, most of you seem to find eternal separation from God as intolerable while having no qualms about thousands of years of agonizing correction. Strange.

I believe the concern is over whether God inflicts pain in order to heal and restore, or whether He does so out of sheer vindictiveness. The latter raises questions as to how it can be said that he who has seen Jesus has seen the Father, or how Jesus could exhort us to love our enemies as the Father loves His enemies. As Paidion said, there is an eternity of difference between eternity and a season of several millennia. I seriously doubt, however, that anyone could convincingly argue that any amount of sin could justly deserve even the thousands of years' torture that the hypothetical example envisages.

[steve7150]

Once the Universalist has disposed of the finality of the judgement, is is not possible to determine from sciptures the duration of the temporal punishment (or correction) envisioned. All that is left is speculation and conjecture. You are at sea without oar or rudder. I challenge any of you to show, from scripture, where there is any necessity that the "confession of Jesus as Lord" will be delayed at all. Rather oddly, most of you seem to find eternal separation from God as intolerable while having no qualms about thousands of years of agonizing correction. Strange.



A period of correction appropriate to the degree of sin is consistent with what Paul said "we reap what we sow" yet you find it strange? The reason that i find ET illogical is that Hitler and Pol Pot receive eternal torment and so does your average Hindu grandma who led a relatively good life , helping her family , helping the sick etc yet knew nothing but Hinduism therefore no Jesus. One of God's attributes is justice and just tossing every unbeliever into eternity away from God is simply not just.
As far as us not knowing the length of punishment for different sinners isn't that one of the mysteries that God chooses to leave to himself?

[steve]

The reason that i find ET illogical is that Hitler and Pol Pot receive eternal torment and so does your average Hindu grandma who led a relatively good life , helping her family , helping the sick etc yet knew nothing but Hinduism therefore no Jesus.

This objection certainly seems reasonable to me.

But beyond that, I can't help wondering...when we think of monsters like Hitler and Pol Pot, if we could trace their lives (as God can), from the time of their innocence as children through whatever events caused them to acquire their particular "demons"...and if we could understand (as God does) the forces external to themselves that played a role in shaping their evil natures...might we question whether an eternity of unrelenting torture is truly just, even for them?

If Corrie ten Boom could actually forgive from her heart the Nazi guard, who had beaten her late sister, when meeting him after the war—and if Richard Wurmbrandt could wash the feet of the Communist prison guard who had previously tortured him, and had since fallen ill to tuberculosis—and if Jesus could say of those who crucified Him, "Father, forgive them. They know not what they do!"—then maybe real forgiveness is possible in the heart of God, even for the monster Hitler. Who can certainly say otherwise?

[steve7150]

But beyond that, I can't help wondering...when we think of monsters like Hitler and Pol Pot, if we could trace their lives (as God can), from the time of their innocence as children through whatever events caused them to acquire their particular "demons"...and if we could understand (as God does) the forces external to themselves that played a role in shaping their evil natures...might we question whether an eternity of unrelenting torture is truly just, even for them?





I can't help but wonder about Paul's statement about the devil being the god of this world who blinds the minds of unbelievers , with regards to precisely how much influence Satan actually has.