Is UR fair to those who believe NOW?

[steve]

Bubba,

You wrote:

I am a man who believes God is totally soveriegn, and no one comes to Him (John 6:44) unless He draws (drags) them. In every age God has had those He has shown Himself to, eventually all people will have regenerated hearts, kind of like Romans chapter 11, where eventually the "stupor" will be taken away and all of Israel will be saved at the end of the age of the Gentiles (us). Logically, how could God be anything but the One who "works all things after the counsel of His will"? I know you are a great defender of man's freewill, but the only will in regards to spiritual matters man has, can be sum up with the words "crucify Him".
Grace, Bubba

Are you saying that a day will come when all living people will become believers (as in postmillennialism), or are you saying that all people of all times, including those who died in unbelief, will someday, somehow come to faith, even if it is a postmortem choice (as in universal reconciliation). Your paragraph above does not make it clear which view you hold, though it would be less surprising to find postmillennialism than it would be to find universalism in a person who holds such Calvinistic commitments.

[Bubba]

Steve,
I would be of the latter persuasion. There are a few of us who hold to a strong belief in God’s sovereignty and yet believe He will eventually reveal Himself to all of mankind who has ever lived. This is not to say that man is not responsible for his actions, and may go through a period of purification and correction ultimately desiring Christ in the end.
Peace, Bubba

[steve]

Thanks for the clarification, Bubba (do you have a shrimp boat, by any chance?).

[Paidion]

If the only will man has toward God is rejection ("Crucify him") ... in other words if man doesn't really have a free will "in regards to spiritual matters", then why does God hold man accountable for his wicked deeds as the Scripture affirms?

[TK]

good question, Paidion. The only answer seems to be "because He can," which isn't much of an answer.

TK

[steve]

If "Crucify him!" is the only human response to Christ, I wonder why so many of the people of Galilee and Judea who never became Christians never seemed interested in killing Him? Did the five-thousand that He fed call for His crucifixion?

[Bubba]

Paidion,
That is a good question, but before we get the "horse before the cart", does Scripture state that the "natural man can not receive the things of the Spirit"(1 Cor. 2:14) and does Romans 3:11-12 really mean what it states,
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."?
I do agree with you that the Scriptures say that man is responsible for his actions, and I know that neither you nor I could have done better then Adam and Eve our federal representatives, but thankfully the 2nd Adam did what none of us could of accomplish, i.e. lived a perfect life.
In the Calvinist world, the depravity of man's nature due to the "Fall" and slavery to the prince of darkness, needs to be taken care of first, and that comes form a sovereign choice of God. The fortunate conclusion for you and I is that God will change the hearts of mankind in His perfect timing and way through Jesus.
Grace, Bubba

[Bubba]

If "Crucify him!" is the only human response to Christ, I wonder why so many of the people of Galilee and Judea who never became Christians never seemed interested in killing Him? Did the five-thousand that He fed call for His crucifixion?

Steve,
I am not suggesting that "crucify Him" is the only response unregenerate man has, I am suggesting that mankind without revelation from God through the Spirit, will never voluntarily choose Christ. Of course, literally speaking, the 5000 from the Sea of Galilee who were fed, probably were not all present, if any, but Passover was approaching. I do believe given the right circumstances unregenerate Steve and Bubba could of have easily been swayed into using these words if our whole religious understanding had been threaten, as was the Jews who were present.
Grace, Bubba

[steve]

Hi Bubba,

You asked:

...does Scripture state that the "natural man can not receive the things of the Spirit"(1 Cor. 2:14) and does Romans 3:11-12 really mean what it states...?

On this forum, there has been much discussion of these verses, especially in the "Calvinism..." category. When context is considered, I don't think that either 1 Corinthians 2 nor Roman 3 can legitimately be used to establish the points that Calvinists employ them to prove.

You wrote:

I do believe given the right circumstances unregenerate Steve and Bubba could of have easily been swayed into using these words if our whole religious understanding had been threaten, as was the Jews who were present.

This may be correct. However, I know a great number of non-Christians who do not seem like the type to approve of the murder (or even the just execution) of anybody. It is not obvious to me (and the Bible does not inform me) that all of these people would actually have departed from their normal temperament and called for the crucifixion of Jesus, had they been there at the time. That all sinners are equally hostile toward God and toward Jesus is an assumption that is often introduced by Calvinists by appeal to texts which, in every case, are written about some specific group of evil people, but are eisegetically universalized by the Calvinist.

[Bubba]

Steve wrote:
" On this forum, there has been much discussion of these verses, especially in the "Calvinism..." category. When context is considered, I don't think that either 1 Corinthians 2 nor Roman 3 can legitimately be used to establish the points that Calvinists employ them to prove."

1 Corinthians 2:6-16,
"We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written:
"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him"— 10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16"For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ."

Steve, it appears to me that "the natural man without the Spirit" can not understand in respect to the verses preceding verse 14 are very contextual.

The whole of chapter 2 of Romans is in regards to the Jews who had the written Law and the Gentile who had the law of conscience which speaks to the fact they are nonetheless guilty and that a true Jew (child of God) is one who is circumcised of heart. Verse 29 of chapter 2, " No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God."

Now read Romans 3:9-20 in context;
"What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin."
Again the verses in question seem very contextual to the passage as a whole.

Steve wrote;
"This may be correct. However, I know a great number of non-Christians who do not seem like the type to approve of the murder (or even the just execution) of anybody. It is not obvious to me (and the Bible does not inform me) that all of these people would actually have departed from their normal temperament and called for the crucifixion of Jesus, had they been there at the time. That all sinners are equally hostile toward God and toward Jesus is an assumption that is often introduced by Calvinists by appeal to texts which, in every case, are written about some specific group of evil people, but are eisegetically universalized by the Calvinist."

Steve, can you imagine the extent of evil present at the time of our Saviour's trial and crucifixion? I do not believe it would be too much of an exaggeration to say that the demonic world was at its worst and influencing what God had ordained to befall His Son, upon those who were the instruments. Yet, in my own life experiences, I am amazed how evil I can become given the right circumstances and I am a Christian. So, your non-Christian acquaintance may not behave in a way normal for them given the possible spiritual and physical influences placed upon them. I know of no Calvinist, back when I hung out in that circle of influence who believed that all sinners are equally hostile to God, only that they would not choose Jesus equally without the efficacious work of the Holy Spirit.
Grace, Bubba