Is UR fair to those who believe NOW?

[TK]

Steve and Steve7150--

the Bible seems to teach that the lost are without excuse- but it seems that if we took what you are saying regarding influences, etc to its logical conclusion then we would be saying that perhaps people have an excuse. (and i dont necesarily disagree with the sentiment of what you are saying. if Hitler came under the influence of CS Lewis (as opposed to someone else) perhaps he would have turned out quite differently.

the question then becomes at what point is the excuse "good" and at what point is it "lame?"

TK

[Paidion]

TK ... excuse for what??? There is no excuse for eternal torment. It is simply unjust no matter how you look at it, and our Beloved Creator who is pure love, does not have the desire or even the ability to execute it, for it is contrary to His GODLY nature. He does exercise tough love, true. But eternal torment serves no purpose except vengeance. It is not love in any form; it is pure, venomous, hate.

[Homer]

Steve wrote:

But it seems to me that it is God, not us, who is in the position to mete out the relative punishments. Perhaps that is why He gives us no guidebook telling how much each person should be or will be punished. All that matters is that God knows what is just, and that He will ultimately do what is just.

I agree that God, and only God, knows what is just, and He will do only what is just. However, the universalist has already circumscribed that which is just for God to do. The judgement of God must be corrective, not punitive, and must be temporal. God's actions weighed in the scales of man!

As I pointed out long ago, God has a "track record", a record of facts. It is easy to argue and speculate about what, in our opinion, God must do in the future. However, I would like to know if God's past actions are consistent with the universalist's standards of what is just. Was God just in condemning all who have lived on this earth to suffering and death for the sin committed by Adam and Eve? The untold agonizing deaths of innocent little children? Was God unjust in this or not, according to human standards?

And Steve wrote:

Speaking only theoretically, it seems to me that it would be nothing short of wonderful (for God and for all concerned), if there was no delay whatsoever! However, it would be necessary for any such confession to be genuine and sincere. That might take some dealings, requiring some amount of time.

And I do not understand why a person like Hitler or Hugh Hefner, acknowledged to be intelligent men, would not immediately recognize their predicament and acknowledge Jesus as Lord, and thus, according to universalist theory, be saved. Certainly, according to universalist theory, God only desires their correction and would put nothing in their way. And what if their confession was based on self-interest? Most all people in this life initially come to Christ for their own sake. And certainly they will believe Jesus to be Lord when they face Him; there will be no doubt.

And Steve wrote:

I believe the concern is over whether God inflicts pain in order to heal and restore, or whether He does so out of sheer vindictiveness. The latter raises questions as to how it can be said that he who has seen Jesus has seen the Father, or how Jesus could exhort us to love our enemies as the Father loves His enemies.

Vindictive and vengeance are synonomous, and scripture repeatedly informs us that vengeance belongs to God, "He will repay". This doesn't sound as though His only intent is to correct errant behavior. In Revelations 6:9-10 the martyrs cry out for God to take revenge. Was this wrong on their part or were they actually pleading for correction? I do not see how this passage fits the universalist theory.

As far as Jesus being an exact representation of God, we must bear in mind that Jesus is the same as the God depicted in the Old Testament.

And:

As Paidion said, there is an eternity of difference between eternity and a season of several millennia.

And as Paidion understands aionios, he is locked in to a temporal, milliniums long age of agonizing, "corrective" yet loving torment in literal fire which he has no qualms about. I see in God's unending punishment, of separation from God, that the condemned have exactly what they desire. I go with C. S. Lewis on this. I will leave it to others to decide which system is most loving.

Steve7150 wrote:

The reason that i find ET illogical is that Hitler and Pol Pot receive eternal torment and so does your average Hindu grandma who led a relatively good life , helping her family , helping the sick etc yet knew nothing but Hinduism therefore no Jesus. One of God's attributes is justice and just tossing every unbeliever into eternity away from God is simply not just.

Where do you find in scripture that the Hindu grandma who never heard of Jesus will be condemned? I find those who believe in Jesus will be saved, and those who refuse to believe will be condemned. I may have missed where scripture informs us of the fate of those who never hear. Scripture seems to indicate they will be judged according to the light they have received. Perhaps I am more liberal than the universalist! I am curious if in the universalist view they will endure a lenghty and agonizing (but loving, of course) "correction".

And Steve wrote:

and if Jesus could say of those who crucified Him, "Father, forgive them. They know not what they do!"—then maybe real forgiveness is possible in the heart of God, even for the monster Hitler. Who can certainly say otherwise?

Steve, do you believe that Jesus' intent was for God to forgive them unconditionally? IMO Jesus' prayer was answered on the day of Pentecost when 3000 of those whom Peter accused of crucifying Jesus repented and were saved, and perhaps numerous others later.

God bless you all brothers!

Your friendly, all alone Contrarian

[TK]

TK ... excuse for what??? There is no excuse for eternal torment. It is simply unjust no matter how you look at it, and our Beloved Creator who is pure love, does not have the desire or even the ability to execute it, for it is contrary to His GODLY nature. He does exercise tough love, true. But eternal torment serves no purpose except vengeance. It is not love in any form; it is pure, venomous, hate.

not an excuse for eternal torment, but rather an excuse for not being a follower of Christ. Being a follower of Christ must mean something, eternally. I know that people say that we are blessed immeasurably in this life by submitting to Christ, and I agree! But one must acknowledge that this life is but a passing moment in comparison with eternity. The "eat drink and be merry" warning parable of Jesus doesnt seem to work if ultimately the man ends up with everyone who put God first. Please understand that I am simply voicing a possible objection to UR; as you know I am undecided on the issue but lean toward CI.

Jesus seems to require people to follow him. the flip side of this is that there is a consequence if one doesnt. maybe not a consequence of eternal torment, but of something.

but allowing for excuses seems to create something of a slippery slope, regardless of what view of hell one believes. why should hitler or pol pot be annihilated (if it wasnt really their fault) or why should they have to be corrected (if it wasnt really their fault) or why should they have to suffer eternally (if it wasnt really their fault).

TK

[steve7150]

As I pointed out long ago, God has a "track record", a record of facts. It is easy to argue and speculate about what, in our opinion, God must do in the future. However, I would like to know if God's past actions are consistent with the universalist's standards of what is just. Was God just in condemning all who have lived on this earth to suffering and death for the sin committed by Adam and Eve? The untold agonizing deaths of innocent little children? Was God unjust in this or not, according to human standards?





God's track record is that he gave man dominion of this world and man allowed Satan to become the god of this world. For man to truly have dominion God apparently has decided that if he would constantly intervene and remedy evil events then man would not really have dominion and apparently having dominion overides the allowance of evil.
The scope of God's plan with regards to this plan isn't revealed in scripture as far as i know therefore believers have to trust God on this and unbelievers usually will not trust God on this.
Also Homer you often use this phrase "human standards" as if man has absolutely no ability or capacity to discern justice yet i'm sure you would acknowledge God gave us the ability to differentiate between right and wrong and for that ability we are accountable to him. He gave us that ability to distinguish right from wrong therefore our "human standards" really mostly come from God himself.

[Bubba]

Homer wrote:
"Where do you find in scripture that the Hindu grandma who never heard of Jesus will be condemned? I find those who believe in Jesus will be saved, and those who refuse to believe will be condemned. I may have missed where scripture informs us of the fate of those who never hear. Scripture seems to indicate they will be judged according to the light they have received. Perhaps I am more liberal than the universalist! I am curious if in the universalist view they will endure a lenghty and agonizing (but loving, of course) "correction".
Yet, Romans 2:12-16 states, "For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."

Homer, it appears to me that all individuals are without excuse, regardless if they have not heard and thus not received Jesus as their Savior. Romans 3:9-12," What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. 10 As it is written:


“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”

Being a person who believes that the elect in every age become so by the revelation of God through the Holy Spirit (see Ephesians 2:1-9), I would conclude such is the extent of the curse from the "Fall". Since one must have a regenerate heart (a God thing) to say yes to Jesus, I struggled for years with the notion that God would send the unregenerate to eternal Hell, knowing from the beginning that they would never say yes without Divine intervention, so why create them at all? The high Calvinist logically deduced that it was God's prerogative to do whatever He wants with His creation, electing some to heaven the rest to Hell. Thankfully, I now believe in God who actually does love His creation and will bring each into His fold by the end of all things.
Grace, Bubba

[Homer]

steve7150,

You wrote:

Also Homer you often use this phrase "human standards" as if man has absolutely no ability or capacity to discern justice yet i'm sure you would acknowledge God gave us the ability to differentiate between right and wrong and for that ability we are accountable to him. He gave us that ability to distinguish right from wrong therefore our "human standards" really mostly come from God himself.

By human standards you are correct. Even a small child has a keen sense of justice. How often we hear them say "its not fair". But, as humans, I believe we grossly underestimate the seriousness of sin. God's response to the sin of Adam and Eve in the garden should give us pause to think. Doesn't His response seem all out of proportion to the offense? And what of all the incalculable sins we commit? Instead, we persistently minimize sin.

[steve7150]

God's response to the sin of Adam and Eve in the garden should give us pause to think. Doesn't His response seem all out of proportion to the offense? And what of all the incalculable sins we commit? Instead, we persistently minimize sin.




Yes we do minimize sin since self justification may be our second strongest instinct and God's reaction to Adam's sin does seem harsh yet how did Jesus react to the woman at the well and the adulteress? Was he harsh or was he compassionate?

[Paidion]

So Bubba, are you simply a Calvinist who believes that 100% of people are "elected" to "eternal life" rather than a mere 1% or fewer as classic Calvinists believe?

[Bubba]

So Bubba, are you simply a Calvinist who believes that 100% of people are "elected" to "eternal life" rather than a mere 1% or fewer as classic Calvinists believe?

Piadion, I am a man who believes God is totally soveriegn, and no one comes to Him (John 6:44) unless He draws (drags) them. In every age God has had those He has shown Himself to, eventually all people will have regenerated hearts, kind of like Romans chapter 11, where eventually the "stupor" will be taken away and all of Israel will be saved at the end of the age of the Gentiles (us). Logically, how could God be anything but the One who "works all things after the counsel of His will"? I know you are a great defender of man's freewill, but the only will in regards to spiritual matters man has, can be sum up with the words "crucify Him".
Grace, Bubba