Talbott's Three Pictures

[Guest]

Paidion,

Thanks for posting the link. I found it very enlightening in regard to how Talbott thinks.

On page one he wrote:

We begin with an inconsistent set of three propositions:

(1) It is God's redemptive purpose for the world (and therefore His will) to reconcile all sinners to himself.

(2) It is within God's power to acheive His redemptive purpose for the world.

(3) Some sinners will never be reconciled to God, and God will therefore either consign them to a place of eternal punishment, from which there will be no hope of escape, or put them out of existence altogether.

As I read this, I almost immediately recognized that Talbott left no place for the free will of the sinner. Then I saw that he recognized this objection (because someone else had already raised it) and relegated it to an endnote where he deemed it irrelevant to his argument. I think there is a serious error in his thinking.

Let us modify his three propositions into four as folllows:

(1) It is God's will to reconcile all sinners to himself during this life so that they cease their life of sin.

(2) It is within God's power to achieve His will for all people during this life.

(3) Some sinners will never be reconciled to God in this life, and God will therefore either consign them to a place of eternal punishment, from which there will be no hope of escape, or put them out of existence altogether.

(4) God values free will and leaves it up to sinners to decide whether they will be reconciled to Him during this life.

We certainly know that (1) is true.

Acts 17:30
In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.


Matthew 7:21
21. “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.


Matthew 12:50 (New King James Version)
50. For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

There is no question that it is God's will for all men everewhere to repent and be reconciled to Him in this life.

I believe all four of my propositions are true and not logically inconsistent. The problem is the idea that God's will is not multi-faceted. Why would we think this? We have a will that desires more than one thing, and we are made in His image. We desire things that conflict with one another. I may want to eat more cake and also want to lose weight. I believe God desires all men to be saved while at the same time He values free will. If God can not do this, then He is less free than we are and is under some principle outside of which He can not act.

[Guest]

Thanks, Homer. Actually I agree with you concerning free will. Whereas I think that Talbott has excellent philosophical and scriptural arguments, I have had difficulty with the idea that God sovereignly brings about the reconciliation of all. This is not my position. I believe that eventually all people will, of their own free will, choose to submit to Christ, and thus be delivered from sin, and attain, through His grace, perhaps gradually, a change in their very character. I think this will come about as a combination of the corrective punishment of Gehenna and the ministry of the completed saints.

As for your four revised propositions, I was unable to see (2) as true:

It is within God's power to achieve His will for all people during this life.

For it is God's will that all people come under His authority in this life, but only a very small fraction of people actually do.

1) If God chooses to sovereignly cause all people to come under His authority in this life, then people will not be able to exercise their free will.

2) Because of God honours the free will of mankind (perhaps the chief way in which they were created in His own image), He will not sovereignly do so, and thus most people choose not to do so during this life.

Some argue that throughout the ages to come (or "all eternity" if you prefer) some people will continue to refuse to submit. Although this is theoretically possible, it is practically impossible. It may be compared to a person who throws a pair of normal dice in the air and both turn up sixes.
He tosses the dice again and once more both turn up as sixes. Practically speaking, if he keeps on tossing, some of the dice will turn up as some othe combination (probably even on the first throw). But theoretically, the dice could continue to turn up as sixes forever.

I know dice don't have free wills, and so the analogy is flawed. But when man's continued rebellion reaps the result of great suffering, and he continues to be instucted in the truth, it is, in practice, certain that he will sooner or later submit. In some cases it may take millions of years.

[Guest]

Paidion,

I must say I respect both you and your belief, and though I wish it to be true, I can not see it as biblical.

God bless, Homer

[Guest]

I must say I respect both you and your belief, and though I wish it to be true, I can not see it as biblical


I think Paidion's understanding is virtually identical to mine and a biblical bulls eye.
It's God's will that none should perish but is God's will just wishful thinking or as Dusty Springfield said just "wishing and hoping?"

"God declares the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done." Isa 46.9-10.
"My purpose shall stand and I will fulfill my intention." Isa 46.10.
"I have spoken and I will bring it to pass, I have planned and I will do it." Isa 46.11.

Free will is implied in the bible but it is not a guarentee given to us by the God of the universe and He will have his will done one way or the other.
No wishing and hoping from God , He has declared the end from the beginning.

[Guest]

I tend to believe that "free will" will continue as a part of human nature, even in whatever circumstances may prevail in the afterlife. If this is true, it would seem theoretically possible for particularly stubborn people to resist God's mercy adamantly and terminally—so that annihilation would be the only just option for their final disposition. If God really does have the power ultimately to force inward compliance, then one wonders while He would not employ this ability on each man in his lifetime, leading to conversion prior to death (which is, apparently, what God would desire for all men).

On the other hand, I find it difficult to imagine, even with free will fully intact, that any individual could fail to be brought to repentance and submission, given the patience of God and the infinity of His resources to influence a man's decisions. With this in mind, it is not impossible to imagine a universalist outcome, even without the cancellation of every man's freedom to choose.

One other possible option (to which I do not incline) is that this life (being the only time of testing) is the only time in which man is truly given a free choice. On this view, God will make all the choices for every man after his passing from this life. Each man will then be rewarded for the things done during his brief opportunity to choose.

Just a miscellany of ideas to chew on.

[Guest]

If God really does have the power ultimately to force inward compliance, then one wonders while He would not employ this ability on each man in his lifetime, leading to conversion prior to death (which is, apparently, what God would desire for all men).





Maybe conversion before death is not as important to God as we think it is. Maybe the great majority of us have so much to learn it takes a lot more time then this lifetime gives us.
That's not to say i would'nt do everything in my power to convert someone to Christ but i have faith that ultimately in due time God's will be done, especially since Jesus prayed for it and Jesus thanked his Father for always hearing his prayer.