My First ET/CI/UR thread :)

[Guest]

As far as I can tell, I've never started a thread in this category. Nor have I participated much in the discussion. But I've been studying this issue quite a bit over the past couple of years. I've been reading NT Wright, 'Heaven' by Randy Alcorn, finished 'The Inescapable Love of God' by Talbott, etc. Here's where I'm at.

If all I had to work with was the OT, I'd almost certainly believe in something similar to soul sleep. The OT speaks simply of the grave (sheol) which seems to be a place of limited to no activity (and the limited activity is probably dramatized and non literal in my opinion). There are, of course, hints of resurrection awaiting the righteous in the future. So based on the weight of the evidence in the OT, I would have guessed that everyone is unconscious at death, but the righteous will be restored, in some way, by God in the future.

The NT seemingly follows this lead in regards to the correspondence b/w sheol (hebrew) and hades (greek) with the exception of luke 16 (rich man and lazarus). That story just adds fog to the equation in my opinion. But I still think the best interpretation of the thief on the cross passage is that believers spirits do go to be with the Lord upon death (at least under the New Covenant). And some of Paul's statements seem to be best interpreted this way as well. I see very little 'solid' evidence for eternal torment, though it remains a possibility.

I don't like the term 'annihilation' because it implies that God destroys someone that would have otherwise lived forever. I don't believe souls are immortal, by nature. Only God is immortal. And so 'conditional immortality' seems to me the best description of the position I've arrived at. If we believe in Jesus Christ we are connected to God and have eternal life. If we do not, we perish. Naturally.

Steve, in his 3 views of Hell audio file, places the argument at what happens AFTER judgment day (right?). He says eternal torment people say torment lasts forever while conditional immortality people say it ceases at that time and UR's say it continues until it's accomplished its purpose.

But, and I suppose this would be my question, WHAT are the leading arguments for TORMENT b/w death and judgment day? Is the rich man and lazarus enough to overwhelm the regular usage of sheol and hades in Scripture? Are a few phrases here and there enough to overcome the fact that they are usually found in highly symbolic passages of the bible?

On the other hand, if the wicked dead are not in torment NOW, why raise them up just to send them back to unconsciousness?

Just my thoughts,
matthew

[Guest]

The places of Scripture that says judgment will be according to works as far as the scope of punishment in hell and reward in heaven within conditional immortality will need to be accounted for as well. Surely Hilter and a murderous tribal man in a jungle will have differing degrees of punishment/judgment in hell.

[Guest]

The NT seemingly follows this lead in regards to the correspondence b/w sheol (hebrew) and hades (greek) with the exception of luke 16 (rich man and lazarus). That story just adds fog to the equation in my opinion.

It won't add to the fog unless you take the parable as an actual state of affairs in the after life. That it was believed by the Jews to be an actual state of affairs is evident when you consider Josephus's Discourse on Hades in which he describes Hades almost exactly as the Lord describes it in his parable, except in even greater detail.

I think the Lord used this common belief to get his parabolic point across ---- that even if someone could return to earth from the dead, the unbelieiving Jews would still not believe, because they did not believe Moses and the prophets.

On the other hand, if the wicked dead are not in torment NOW, why raise them up just to send them back to unconsciousness?

I have often wondered about the same thing.

But I discovered many of those those who believe either "soul sleep" or the annihilation of the person, think that that person will be brought back to life in order to give him a second chance to submit to the authority of Christ. Only if he continues to refuse, will he be annihilated permanently.

[Guest]

On the other hand, if the wicked dead are not in torment NOW, why raise them up just to send them back to unconsciousness?

This is a good question. I believe that He will not raise the dead only to destroy them again. To do so would make no sense and serve no purpose IMO.

Todd

[_Rick_C]

Matt, What is "b/w"? Not familiar with that abbrev.

The NT seemingly follows this lead in regards to the correspondence b/w sheol (hebrew) and hades (greek) with the exception of luke 16 (rich man and lazarus). That story just adds fog to the equation in my opinion. But I still think the best interpretation of the thief on the cross passage is that believers spirits do go to be with the Lord upon death (at least under the New Covenant).

What we have here isn't really a "NT concept" but an intertestamental one. During the intertestamental period, teachings about people in realm of the dead expanded beyond the OT.

Jews of Jesus' day believed the realm of the dead had compartments. Paradise, in the righteous realm, was the same place as "in Abraham's bosom." The wicked dead were elsewhere "in flames."

So Jesus was telling the thief on his cross was that he would be with him in Paradise that very day (upon both of their deaths). But this wasn't to say he would be in heaven with him. Rather, he would go with Jesus to the place where the righteous dead dwelt. I don't know if that helps much on this part, Matt...(?).

.... if the wicked dead are not in torment NOW, why raise them up just to send them back to unconsciousness?

The conditional immortality view (mine) believes in the general resurrection: All will give an account for what they did in the body (how everyone lived while alive). The wicked will be destroyed at that time, forever (won't be unconscious, won't "be" any more).

I can't, as of yet, make a decision on soul-sleep (as we have several sub-topics here). Awaiting your reply, haven't been studying these things lately.

[Guest]

Hey

B/w is the my lazy way of saying 'between'

So Jesus was telling the thief on his cross was that he would be with him in Paradise that very day (upon both of their deaths). But this wasn't to say he would be in heaven with him. Rather, he would go with Jesus to the place where the righteous dead dwelt. I don't know if that helps much on this part, Matt...(?).

I don't know. Being with someone in the realm of the dead doesn't sound too exciting to me actually, depending on what you think the realm of the dead was like...but since you are contrasting it from 'heaven,' I'd imagine you don't view it as very great.

The conditional immortality view (mine) believes in the general resurrection: All will give an account for what they did in the body (how everyone lived while alive). The wicked will be destroyed at that time, forever (won't be unconscious, won't "be" any more).

I agree with your wording, but I'm not sure how you answered my question. What do you believe is the state of the wicked b/w their death and the general resurrection? Are you saying you think they go from unconsciousness to extinction? If so, is that really a distinction worth noting? Or are you saying you're still undecided if they are in an unconscious state right now?

[_Rick_C]

I don't know. Being with someone in the realm of the dead doesn't sound too exciting to me actually, depending on what you think the realm of the dead was like...but since you are contrasting it from 'heaven,' I'd imagine you don't view it as very great.

The idea of being conscious in the afterlife developed during the intertestamental period. To any Jew, being in Abraham's bosom would be a pretty good place to be. Today this would mean something like "being hugged (or safely embraced)." Contrast this to being in flames.

What do you believe is the state of the wicked b/w their death and the general resurrection? Are you saying you think they go from unconsciousness to extinction? If so, is that really a distinction worth noting? Or are you saying you're still undecided if they are in an unconscious state right now?

I'm not really decided on all the details for believers, and non-believers.

For believers, the intermediate state is spoken of as "sleep" in Paul. In this sense it could be viewed as a type of "unconsciousness." This sleep seems to be referring to their bodies, primarily. But while their bodies "sleep" they may also have some form of consciousness...as with the thief in Paradise with Jesus or the beggar in Abraham's bosom.

Yet this consciousness isn't depicted as the same kind we have right now in our bodies (while being alive): It is a body-less one. Perhaps the intermediate state, for believers, if it does have consciousness, is something like dreams? Btw, dreams are real, just not really-real. They're symbolic...which might help some, and maybe say a lot. See what N.T. Wright says on this stuff here.

Right now, if I had to say: Unbelievers are simply dead when they die with no awareness of anything. When Jesus returns they will be physically resurrected and really-awake (in real bodies, just like believers). At that time they will be put out of existence forever...is how I see it now.

What N.T. Wright says about these things makes me see that in the [literal] end; every single person will be before God in actual really-alive bodies and judged. Then, as Wright says, all things will be "put to rights" (a British expression for something like "fix everything up"). This will be when 1 Cor. 15:28 happens, after all of Christ's enemies are conquered and destroyed (and I don't want to debate any universalists on this verse again). His enemies who have died will need to be alive, in God's plan, in order to be judged (as final judgment is deferred in this present age for everyone).

We seldom think that the afterlife, especially when we think of the final judgment, involves truly alive (REAL-IN-BODIES) people. But that's how it will be! God, in His Providence and Wisdom, has designed it this way. The phrase "keepin' it real" comes to mind (for some reason)....

I don't have every mystery figured out, that's for sure.

[Guest]

Yeah, I'm fairly close to your view

But I just don't understand why God would resurrect the unconscious wicked just to extinguish them. That doesn't make much sense to me. But that doesn't mean, of course, that it isn't right.

I'm still reading through Volume 3 of NT Wright's big series

[_Rick_C]

Matt, then I gotta go.

But I just don't understand why God would resurrect the unconscious wicked just to extinguish them. That doesn't make much sense to me. But that doesn't mean, of course, that it isn't right.

Again, I don't think the Bible refers to the wicked as "sleeping" after they die (or unconscious, as you're putting it). That metaphor applies to the dead in Christ. I just thought of something: Unbelievers in Thessalonians are depicted as being asleep right now:
1 Th 4:4But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ (NIV).
_____________________________________________________

But to reply, I'll ask:
In what other way do you think God could judge the wicked dead?
Why would He judge them differently than us?
(The Bible's real clear on one general resurrection).

Could He (somehow) judge their spirits alone?
Remember: Human beings aren't angels or demons (spiritual beings):
We don't as much as "have bodies" as we ARE-BODIES....

It could also be asked:
Why will God resurrect us just to reward us?
Couldn't He just reward our spirits?
People are bodily-people! Therefore, people will either enter the New Heavens and New Earth [with/in/by bodies] or they won't!

My main point: God isn't a gnostic toward anyone. He's just not a gnostic-God.

We've been too influenced by Platonic thought (see the TIME interview again).
Curious on your replies.

[Guest]

I thought the conditional immortality view holds that the wicked will be punished, as warranted, in hell and then ultimately, when their punishment is complete, they will be snuffed out. This answers the "why raise them just to put them out of existence" dilemma. if it were otherwise, and the unbelieving dead would have the exact same punishment, which doesnt seem to square with scripture.

In other words, under this view, someone like Hitler would be punished longer before being snuffed out than a good Jew that never accepted Christ.

TK