"TULIP" . . . Universalist Style

[_Rick_C]

Greetings,

I've made a "Universalist TULIP" (borrowing from Calvinism's TULIP) for the purposes of discussion/debate.

Disclaimer: I'm not a universalist and do not believe the content of the following TULIP nor in any universalist doctrine (I thought I should and must say). Also, certain "parts" of this TULIP I could agree with --- but only if they were taken completely out of it and seen in another context. Thanks.

Note: "T" has been edited (amended) for clarity, NOV 28th, sorry about that.
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Universalist TULIP

Temporal Transcendence: The Irrelevancy of Time
The final destiny of all who will have ever lived is not limited to being accomplished in time and/or this present age. The divine decree {or will, or plan} for all humanity transcends the temporal and will be carried out both within--and beyond--time.

Universal Election of All into one of: The Two Elect Peoples
One, The Premortem Elect: those who believe and/or submit to God before death.
Two, The Postmortem Elect: those who believe and/or submit to God after death.

Limited Salvations:
(TWO different and separated salvations, premortem and postmortem)
One, Limited to: only those who experience salvation through believing before they die. Happens only before the return of Christ.
Two, Limited to: only those who experience "postmortem 'salvation out of Hell' after they die". Happens only after the return of Christ.

Irresponsibility of All Humanity
God bears full responsibility in terms of the final destiny of all in the eternal state and will carry it out. In accordance to the divine will, God has decreed that the Two Elect Peoples will experience one of the two Limited Salvations as each are assigned:
A. The Premortem Elect will believe during their their lifetimes and will not be condemned in judgment, being literally "saved from Hell" in accordance to the divine decree.
B. The Postmortem Elect will not believe during their lifetimes and yet will NOT be spared judgment for their unbelief and/or their rejection of the Gospel [God]. After being punished for their unbelief and/or rejection of God in Hell for an unknown length of time, "they will be 'saved' out of Hell" in accordance to the divine decree.

Predetermined Destiny
By divine decree, all persons of all time will ultimately be with God forever. All have been assigned to be in one of the Two Elect Peoples. All are predetermined to experience one of the two different and separated Limited Salvations in accordance to their divine appointment. At the end of this present age with the return of Christ, the Premortem Elect will immediately be with God forever. The Postmortem Elect will be with God only after going to Hell at the return of Christ, from which they will ultimately be "saved out of" in order to be with God forever.
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Introductory comments.
I think that, probably, the most important thing the above reveals is universalism's non-biblical doctrine of "salvation out of Hell" as the Bible is completely silent about postmortem salvation of any kind. Christians (we who believe today) are saved how the Bible says people are and can be saved which, I believe, is the only salvation there is.

It was difficult to write this TULIP because I believe universalism is false teaching. I apologize in advance to any Non-Universalists who could or might take offense at what's in this TULIP and/or the universalist doctrines it exposes. I reiterate: I'm not a universalist.

This TULIP could have been done differently. I'm sure it has weaknesses that could be fine tuned and/or debated. But from what I've learned, and in my opinion, it correctly states what many if not most universalists believe (though I realize they have differences among themselves also).

I have 'scriptural support' for each letter, above, and will present them to critique and challenge the relative merits of universalism as the thread unfolds.

Like Calvinism's TULIP, this one doesn't make sense till you see and understand all of the letters together from start to finish. I understand Calvinism's TULIP but do not agree with it. Same thing here on this one,

Thanks for reading and I'm looking forward to your replies,
Rick

[Guest]

Good job, Rick (others may disagree).

I think this sums up the UR position quite nicely, as succinctly as is possible.

I have to admit, sometimes when I am reading various posts by universalists, I feel myself being swayed somewhat. But when i see it summarized like this, I am pulled back into my more traditional way of thinking.

Your "tulip" took quite a bit of effort, and I appreciate it.

TK

[_Rick_C]

Thanks, TK

I had planned a thread on what's under "L" with the Two Salvations.
What the Bible tells us about--and only about--is Premortem Salvation:
the only biblical salvation there is.

Scriptural support.
Romans 5 (NASB)
8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Many a universalist website, all I've ever seen, actually, say they believe in universal "salvation". Yet the above salvation is precisely the one salvation universalists say isn't necessary; that there is another salvation to be obtained for those who will "miss this one". It's a strange salvation that's totally foreign to the Bible: A kind of "getting saved by not getting saved." Definitely NOT the salvation Paul taught....

The TULIP just so happened to easily work out for 'the other breakdowns' in universalism. Btw, I'm 'traditional' only when any given tradition can be traced back to Christ and the Apostles and shown to have come from them and, am radically-minded enough to believe anything as long as it can be demonstrated it's What The Bible Sez!

Anyway, thanks again, TK.
I'm glad to have been of some help to you,
Rick

[Guest]

Hey Rick,

Good points. What I find interesting, those holding to a Universalist position are the same ones who argued against Calvinism. Their theologicial approach is similar. The differences I see with their assumptions are only a matter of degree.

In Jesus,
Bob

[_Steve]

Hi Rick,

Like yourself, I am not a Universalist—though (like God Himself) I would like to become one, if possible, someday. That will depend on where my studies of scripture ultimately lead me. However, if I were a Universalist, I would wish to modify the content of your five points.

[Note: Rick has revised his original five points (above). This response was given to his original version, before it was revised]

Your "T" :

Temporal Irrelevance
Time has no relevance in terms of the final destiny of all who will have ever lived; i.e., it doesn't ultimately matter if anyone believes during their lifetimes and/or before the end of time (human history as we now know it in this present age, before the return of Jesus).

If I were a Universalist, I would say that the present time is extremely relevant. It may not be the only opportunity to submit to Christ, but it is the only opportunity to fulfill the will of God in this present age. I would be more interested in man's duty to please God and to fulfill His purpose (which is the most important aspect of what I would call "salvation") than in man's ability to escape the flames of hell. My eternal fate is relatively irrelevant compared to the weighty concern of God receiving His due from His creatures. My earthly opportunities are the ones that are limited, and, therefore, extremely urgent and relevant.

In all likelihood, if Universalism turned out to be true, there would also be a difference in reward and status, in eternity, for those who followed Christ in their lifetimes. A promise is made of reigning with Christ to those who "suffer with Him"—though this might not apply to those who suffer in hell for their rebellion to Him. Thus, the present time is not irrelevant at all, whether the traditional view or the Universalist view is true.


Your "U" :

Universal Election of All into one of: The Two Elect Peoples
One, The Premortem Elect: those who believe and/or submit to God before death.
Two, The Postmortem Elect: those who believe and/or submit to God after death.

While Universalism does distinguish between those who repent before and those who repent after death, I am not aware of any need to import the idea that God specifically elected individuals to fall into one or another category. I think they are simply viewed as the only two categories available, and that people choose one or the other for themselves.


Your "L" :

Limited Salvations:
(TWO different and separated salvations, premortem and postmortem)
One, Limited to: only those who experience salvation through believing before they die. Happens only before the return of Christ.
Two, Limited to: only those who experience "postmortem 'salvation out of Hell' after they die". Happens only after the return of Christ.

Insofar as not everyone's experience in eternity will be identical (e.g., reigning over five cities or reigning over ten), there would seem to be multiple "salvations"—some more limited in their privileges than others. Likewise, there will be multiple judgments for the unbelievers (e.g., few stripes or many; "more tolerable" or "less tolerable" in the day of judgment)—some more limited than others. This would seem to be true whether Universalism is true, or whether conditional immortality or the traditional view are true.

While "salvation out of hell" may be said to be absent from scripture, one could equally say that the word "hell" is absent from scripture (that is, from the Greek and Hebrew, where no single word seems to answer to our concept of "hell"). If we follow the biblical writers in commonly replacing the word "hell" with some equivalent, like "punishment" or "condemnation" or some such, then it might be possible, without violence to biblical logic, to postulate a salvation, not "out of hell," but a salvation "through judgment" or "through fire" (e.g. 1 Cor.3:15, where the term is used, but not of the unbelievers).

Just a possibility to consider.

Your "I" :

Irresponsibility of All Humanity
God bears full responsibility in terms of the final destiny of all in the eternal state and will carry it out. In accordance to the divine will, God has decreed that the Two Elect Peoples will experience one of the two Limited Salvations as assigned to each:
A. The Premortem Elect will believe during their their lifetimes and will not be condemned in judgment, being literally "saved from Hell" in accordance to the divine decree.
B. The Postmortem Elect will not believe during their lifetimes and yet will NOT be spared judgment for their unbelief and/or their rejection of the Gospel [God]. After being punished for their unbelief and/or rejection of God in Hell for an unknown length of time, they will "be saved out of Hell" in accordance to the divine decree.

I do not think "irresponsibility" is a term that works here. Those who are sent to "hell" (whether eternally or only for a time) are certainly being held responsible for their decisions in life. There is no irresponsibility in this scenario. If one man is sent to prison for life because of his crimes, and another is incarcerated for five years for his lesser crimes, and is then released to be punished no further, we do not say that one of them was held responsible for his crimes and the other was not. Both men were punished in proportion to their respective responsibility.

The only way we could say that the second man was not held responsible would be if he received only five years, but we believed he deserved life in prison (or some other length beyond the five years he received). If Universalism is true, then every man will receive as much punishment as is appropriate to his condition—but no one will suffer eternally. The only way that we could say this treats a man as "not responsible" would be if we could convince ourselves that a man's temporal crimes in time somehow actually deserve an endless torment in eternity, which he is not receiving. Some may feel that this is the case, but they are not the only ones who hold man accountable for his deeds.

Your "P" :

Predetermined Destiny
By divine decree, all persons of all time will ultimately be with God forever. All have been assigned to be in one of the Two Elect Peoples. All are predetermined to experience one of the two different and separated Limited Salvations in accordance to their divine appointment. At the end of this present age with the return of Christ, the Premortem Elect will immediately be with God forever. The Postmortem Elect will be with God only after going to Hell at the return of Christ, from which they will ultimately be "saved out of" in order to be with God forever.


Again, I do not know whether Universalists believe that God has predestined each individual to one category or the other (if I were a Universalist, I would not think this), but they do believe that God has a "predetermined destiny" for His creation, which includes reconciling all things to Himself in Christ. From my reading of Ephesians and Colossians, I do not think this to be an idea that Paul would find repugnant.


Perhaps I should allow the real Universalists to answer for themselves. However, I like to make sure that I am not, in my thinking, misrepresenting the views of another camp, lest what I am rejecting as their view turn out to be a caricature of the view, and the truth actually lie closer to their position than am able to see, because of my rejection of the caricature.

[Guest]

Very well said, Steve!

[_Rick_C]

Steve,
Thanks for your reply.
Rick

[Guest]

Hey Rick C--

I don't know if you've ever heard David Hogan speak (he runs a minsitry to the Indians in south america and purportedly has seen many miracles there- including dead raisings)- but anyway, you type like he talks!

TK

[Guest]

I never would've thought of that myself, but yes, I can see that as well, TK.

[Guest]

Again, I do not know whether Universalists believe that God has predestined each individual to one category or the other (if I were a Universalist, I would not think this), but they do believe that God has a "predetermined destiny" for His creation, which includes reconciling all things to Himself in Christ. From my reading of Ephesians and Colossians, I do not think this to be an idea that Paul would find repugnant.

This is one of the first things I thought when reading this TULIP. Calvanism says that each person is predestined by God to be in one group or the other with no choice in the matter at all. This is not true for CU, CI, or eternal torment. Trying to align CU with Calvanism is way off base IMO. All four views have two groups, but only Calvanism says it is predetermined which group one will be in.

All four views also say that each of the two groups are predestined to an ultimate fate as Steve points out for CU. CU is no more a "predestination doctrine" than CI or eternal torment is.

Todd