Conditional Immortality

[Guest]

There is a vulgar term for what appears to be going on here -- a term which if taken literally, women are not equipped to participate in; if taken figuratively, I'd prefer not to participate in. So go ahead, figure out who can shoot farthest and perhaps I'll come back when it's all over.

[Guest]

Ouch!

I'm laughing and wincing at the same time! Michelle, I apologize. I don't want to be a party to the type of contest you referred to, nor to play a part in making anyone feel excluded. The only solution I can think of is to curtail my interaction with Rick, since we seem to keep butting heads (or being a pair of buttheads). Again, I am sorry.

- Danny

[Guest]

Hello all,

I guess I "don't have a dog in this fight". I am of the traditional view until I am "corrected" . I see little danger in the annihilationist view, however. I share Rick and Bob's concerns with universalism, mankind's nature being what it is. I can elaborate, but I am saving time for now.

However, knowing the truth is always important, for our Lord is truth.

Michelle wrote:

There is a vulgar term for what appears to be going on here -- a term which if taken literally, women are not equipped to participate in; if taken figuratively, I'd prefer not to participate in. So go ahead, figure out who can shoot farthest and perhaps I'll come back when it's all over.

Michelle, you went over my head, I have no idea what you are referring to; hope you are not referring to something I have said or done. I hope I have not offended you. I always appreciate your input.

Steve7150 wrote:

It's interesting Bob that the way you describe "justice" sounds to me more like vengence. But the bible says
GOD IS LOVE and it says
Love fulfills the law , and it says
the weightier parts of the law are justice, mercy and faithfulness.
So here we see justice and mercy joined at the hip, Bob.
Not justice and vengence but justice and mercy.

And what of "vengeance is mine says the Lord". He acts in ways we are forbidden. Its His prerogative to act and determine what is appropriate, not ours. And He has said He will.

In reference to:
Mat 10:28 (RSV)
And fear not those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul.
But rather fear the one who is able to destroy (apolesai) both soul and body in gehenna.

Lu 12:4-5 (RSV)
4. But I say to you, my friends, fear not those who kill the body and after these things have nothing left to do. 5. But I will show you whom to fear. Fear the one who, after killing, has authority to cast one into gehenna. Yes, I say to you, fear this one.

Rick commented:

In any event and needless to say, there were certainly Pharisees in the crowd Jesus spoke to. Based on the teachings of Jesus alone in these texts, it seems he taught 'conditional immortality' both privately to his disciples and to the public: That he 'just said it' over and against 'eternal torment' and/or Pharisaical doctrine. I don't see how another conclusion can be reached on this (?).

But the Greek word apolesai may mean annihilate or it might mean "rendered useless", or something else, according to the lexicons. It is interesting Jesus didn't say "destroy" in the parallel place (Luke).

And Rick said:

Universalism wasn't a view in the church till around 230AD, ff., with the teachings of Origen.

It is claimed Clement of Alexandria was also universalist. Does anyone have clear proof of this? What little I have read of him on this sounded as though he could have been speaking of purgatory, similar to Catholic belief (i.e., only certain people go there, not all who miss heaven).

And Bob wrote:

The imagery used to describe the fate of the "wicked" is apparently a concious on going living seperation from the goodness of God. If the free-will He gave has no real value, then the choice and call of Life or Death, repent or perish becomes a meaningless exercise, IMO. Especially if He ultimatley saves "all" anyway.

To me, I have viewed the "lake of fire as a metaphor. I see the lost suffering a life of separation from God, any any influence that God provides in life. A very bad condition indeed, but one consistent with their inclinations. As C. S. Lewis said, they have exactly what they want. Can anyone imagine a person in torment as described by Jonathan Edwards ("Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God") who would not repent "on the spot"?

As Bob said, if universalism is true, I see no point to it all. Why are we here, and why do (and have) Christians gone through so many travails only to wind up in the same condition as their tormentors? Think of it: the martyrs who were tortured to death will be joined in heaven with those who murdered them, after the wicked go through "rehab", of course.
If the fate of the wicked is not eternal, or the annihilationist view is not correct, no universalist can prove the duration of the punishment of the wicked.

[Guest]

Ouch! Embarassed

I'm laughing and wincing at the same time! Michelle, I apologize. I don't want to be a party to the type of contest you referred to, nor to play a part in making anyone feel excluded. The only solution I can think of is to curtail my interaction with Rick, since we seem to keep butting heads (or being a pair of buttheads). Again, I am sorry.

- Danny

Thanks, Danny. I wasn't really looking for an apology, I was just clarifying why I wanted to step back from this thread.

Michelle, you went over my head, I have no idea what you are referring to; hope you are not referring to something I have said or done. I hope I have not offended you. I always appreciate your input.

Thanks for your concern, Homer, but you've done nothing to offend me. Nobody has. Honestly. I was just trying to explain how the flow of this conversation seems to me. I hope you won't mind if I decline to explain the metaphor I was referring to...it is kind of vulgar.

[Guest]

As Bob said, if universalism is true, I see no point to it all. Why are we here, and why do (and have) Christians gone through so many travails only to wind up in the same condition as their tormentors? Think of it: the martyrs who were tortured to death will be joined in heaven with those who murdered them, after the wicked go through "rehab", of course.
If the fate of the wicked is not eternal, or the annihilationist view is not correct, no universalist can prove the duration of the punishment of the wicked


So Homer it sounds like the value you place in your walk with Christ is significantly affected by how God deals with those "other" people? Because if God deals with them in a way other then retribution then what is the point of this walk with Christ?
Am i misrepresenting your statement and apparently Bob agrees with you that the relationship with Christ is not enough by itself because you gentlemen need retribution to really feel content.
Please correct me if i misunderstood.

[Guest]

Thanks for your concern, Homer, but you've done nothing to offend me. Nobody has. Honestly. I was just trying to explain how the flow of this conversation seems to me. I hope you won't mind if I decline to explain the metaphor I was referring to...it is kind of vulgar.



I think i got the metaphor but i hope you forgive us all, we're just fallible guys who all stumble a lot on the way to the kingdom.

[Guest]

Mercy is not justice

Is not "fairness" the primary meaning of "justice"? And is not "mercy" an integral part of "fairness"?

jus-tice (justis)n. 1. The quality of being just; fairness. 2. The principle of moral rightness; equity. Conformity to moral rightness in action or attitude; righteousness. 3. The upholding of what is just, especially fair treatment and due reward in accordance with honor, standards, or law. Law. The administration and procedure of law.

---------------------------------------------------------
Excerpted from American Heritage Talking Dictionary
Copyright © 1997 The Learning Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Frequently, in the Old Testament, justice is spoken of in relation to treating the oppressed with fairness instead of taking advantage of them.
Here are just a few verses which we might do well to consider:

Psalms 103:6 The LORD works vindication and justice for all who are oppressed.
Psalms 112:5 It is well with the man who deals generously and lends, who conducts his affairs with justice.
Psalms 119:149 In your steadfast love hear my voice; O LORD, in your justice preserve my life. Psalms 119:156 Great is your mercy, O LORD; give me life according to your justice.
Psalms 140:12 I know that the LORD maintains the cause of the needy, and executes justice for the poor.
Psalms 146:7 who executes justice for the oppressed; who gives food to the hungry. The LORD sets the prisoners free;
Proverbs 1:3 for gaining instruction in wise dealing, righteousness, justice, and equity;
Proverbs 2:8 guarding the paths of justice and preserving the way of his faithful ones.
Proverbs 2:9 Then you will understand righteousness and justice and equity, every good path;
Isaiah 1:17 learn to do good; seek justice, rescue the oppressed, defend the orphan, plead for the widow.
Isaiah 5:7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the people of Judah are his pleasant planting; he expected justice, but saw bloodshed; righteousness, but heard a cry!
Isaiah 10:1,2 Ah, you who make iniquitous decrees, who write oppressive statutes, to turn aside the needy from justice and to rob the poor of my people of their right, that widows may be your spoil, and that you may make the orphans your prey!
Isaiah 30:18 Therefore the LORD waits to be gracious to you; therefore he will rise up to show mercy to you. For the LORD is a God of justice; blessed are all those who wait for him. (Hmmmm... does this verse pretty well equate "mercy" with "justice"?)

There are far more passages which speak of justice in relation to fairness toward the oprressed than there are in relation to punishment of the wicked.

Consider also this prophecy concerning the Messiah. The justice of the Messiah is emphasized, but not in connection with the punishment of the wicked, but in connection with fairness for all. The coastlands wait for His teaching and justice, doubless with great expectation!

Isaiah 42:1-4 Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights; I have put my spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the nations. He will not cry or lift up his voice, or make it heard in the street; a bruised reed he will not break, and a dimly burning wick he will not quench; he will faithfully bring forth justice. He will not grow faint or be crushed until he has established justice in the earth; and the coastlands wait for his teaching.

Praise the wonderful name of Jesus! He will not harm the weak and oppressed, but will bring forth justice for them.

[Guest]

Homer,

But the Greek word apolesai may mean annihilate or it might mean "rendered useless", or something else, according to the lexicons. It is interesting Jesus didn't say "destroy" in the parallel place (Luke).

Nice argument over 'apolesai' (from Strong's 622 = apollumi). Mind if I put a universalist spin on that? (I'll refrain - seeing as I have already )

And what of "vengeance is mine says the Lord". He acts in ways we are forbidden. Its His prerogative to act and determine what is appropriate, not ours. And He has said He will.

In addition to the promise that God will do veneance, is the fact that we are NOT to. Wasn't that why Paul brought this up? We are not to recompense others evil for evil, but rather to show kindness to our enemies! (What a concept, overcome evil through goodness!) Maybe that is why it is God's to do the vengeance, because He knows how to be both merciful and just, we do not. (He knows the WHOLE truth, we know in part).

As Bob said, if universalism is true, I see no point to it all. Why are we here, and why do (and have) Christians gone through so many travails only to wind up in the same condition as their tormentors? Think of it: the martyrs who were tortured to death will be joined in heaven with those who murdered them, after the wicked go through "rehab", of course.
If the fate of the wicked is not eternal, or the annihilationist view is not correct, no universalist can prove the duration of the punishment of the wicked.

The Bible tells us why Christians must undergo so many travails. You know the answer as well as I do. And we are promised rich rewards, and we will inherit a kingdom, joint-heirs with Christ. I personally do not believe that it will be the same for the wicked who do not turn to Christ in this life as for those who go through the travails you refer to. Just as I do not believe the one who turns to Christ on his/her deathbed will receive the same reward as the one who works his/her entire life for the Kingdom. I think that they both may share in life everlasting, reconciled to Christ, but I believe the Bible also teaches special rewards for those who forsake all that they have, pick up their cross and follow after Christ.

Regarding your comment re: the martyrs being joined together in heaven with their murderers, isn't that exactly what you believe yourself ? (So long as the murderer repents before he/she dies). Elizabeth Elliott's husband was murdered by someone who later turned to Christ. There are countless examples of this. As the thread on "Does death end our ability to choose" has demonstrated, it is difficult to show from scripture that repentance is impossible after death.

Blessings,
Mike

[Guest]

Hello Paidion,

Quote" Is not "fairness" the primary meaning of "justice"? And is not "mercy" an integral part of "fairness"?"

We talked about this once before. I thought I was clear. I do not disagree
with you that "justice" is one word we understand in various ways, depending upon the context. "Fairness" is only one aspect. People often question the "fairness" of God when they encounter the so-called "hard sayings" in Scripture. The Wrath of God we find in Scripture
is the positive out-pouring of His (penal) Justice. You know the examples, I' ve cited them before. Abraham questioned the "rightness, and fairness of God" when Sodom and Gomorrah were about to be destroyed. Not that he necessarily doubted God's righteousnes in dealing with the wicked. Abraham's concern was over the "righteous being treated the same as the wicked". Problem was, nobody in Sodom was righteous! Hence the exchange between Abraham and God:," Will you sweep away the righteous"? "Far be it from you to do such a thing-to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike". Gen 18:23,25. (this dialoge doesn't help the Universal view).
So in this case among others, did Sodom recieve mercy or justice for their sin?
How about the book of Jonah. Jonah wanted his enemies destroyed. God told him to go preach repentance. Jonah eventually obeyed God (reluctantly) after being hurled out of the belly of a great fish, and Nineveh repented! Nineveh repented only after the warning of their impending overthrow by God was taken to heart at Jonah's preaching against them. Justice was served. Mercy was granted. God desires mercy. Mercy triumphs over justice as James teaches us. But not without repentance! So if the Lord "waits" to be gracious, what is He waiting for, but repentance?

[_Derek]

Well, a whole lot could be said about this. I lean toward conditional immortality as well.

The strongest verse for this postion is 2 Thessolonians 1:9.

2Th 1:6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
2Th 1:7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
2Th 1:8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 2Th 1:10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed.

Those that do not know God or obey the gospel will be destroyed and put away from the presense of God for eternity.

That these do not get a second chance after death seems evident by the fact that they are destroyed when Jesus returns. It's not just physical because it's eternal destruction. Maybe its only speaking of those who were afflicting the Thessalonians, (vs.6) but either way, it would disprove Universalism if they suffer "eternal destruction away from the presense of the Lord".

It also doesn't make sense according to eternal torment, because you can't "eternally destroy" something. It is rather the destruction that is eternal.

It also makes sense when compared with Jesus' statement in Matt. 10:28:

Mat 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Aparently God can, (Matt 10:28) and will (2 Thess. 1:9) destroy the souls of those that do not choose to follow Christ while still alive.

God bless,