Article on Universalism.

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_Homer
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Article on Universalism.

Post by _Homer » Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:21 am

Here is an eye opening article:

"Universalism: a Historical Survey"

A few quotes:

One very strong objection to universalism in these centuries was the deep-rooted belief that the threat of eternal torment was a necessary deterrent from immorality during this life. So weighty was this objection felt to be, that some who believed in universal salvation (or even in annihilation) held that this belief must remain an esoteric, secret doctrine for the few, while hell must continue to be preached as a deterrent for the masses. Even in the nineteenth century, where such esotericism was seen to be indefensible, universalists found it necessary to meet the objection by emphasizing as much as possible the severity and length of the torments which the wicked must endure before their eventual salvation.

The nineteenth-century debates always included extensive exegetical discussions, especially over the meaning of aionios. In this century, however, exegesis has turned decisively against the universalist case. Few would now doubt that many NT texts clearly teach a final division of mankind into saved and lost, and the most that universalists now commonly claim is that alongside these texts there are others which hold out a universal hope (e.g. Eph. 1: 10; Col. 1: 20).

C. W. Emmet's essay, 'The Bible and Hell' (1917), is something of a landmark. After a survey of the NT material, showing that final division and judgment are clearly taught and hesitating to find full universalism even in Ephesians and Colossians, Emmet declares: It is best in fact to admit quite frankly that any view of the future destiny of [unbelievers] which is to be tolerable to us today must go beyond the explicit teaching of the New Testament.... [This] does not really give us what we want, and it only leads to insincerity if we try to satisfy ourselves by artificial explanations of its language. And we are in the end on surer ground when as Christians we claim the right to go beyond the letter, since we do so under the irresistible leading of the moral principles of the New Testament and of Christ Himself.'

Thus the modern universalist is no longer bound to the letter of the NT; he can base his doctrine on the spirit of NT teaching about the love of God. The same principle can even be extended to the teaching of the historical Jesus, though some have been able to persuade themselves that the Gospel texts about final judgment are not in any case authentic words of Jesus. This more liberal approach to Scripture has probably played quite a large part in the general spread of universalism in this century.
Note: there are several typos in the article that require you to stop and think what word is meant, such as mood's will instead of God's will.

I hadn't realized Univeralism had been influenced so much by Plato and Darwin.

Hey Rick, your "url" post worked for me! Thanks!
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Post by _Rick_C » Thu Nov 08, 2007 9:57 am

Hello Homer,

'Glad the "url trick" did it for you, :wink:

Earlier this week I found, read, and bookmarked this article (doing a google search on "Origen and universalism"). I also found Origen's writings and read quite a bit from them. Interestingly, he "quoted" the same verses that 'Reconciliationists' have on this forum; quoting them in the the same way---completely out of context.

Quick comment (for now) on:
Bauckham wrote:Thus the modern universalist is no longer bound to the letter of the NT; he can base his doctrine on the spirit of NT teaching about the love of God.
I agree that Reconciliationist (universalist) theology is "unbound" by the letter of the NT. But what is 'the letter' of the NT? Its clear teaching. Its historical-grammatical meaning. The whole of the NT. And on to biblical theology (the Bible taken as a whole). Universalism has freed itself from these (liberalism).

Which isn't to say that they don't have a theology that they base on the Bible. They believe it is based on all of it and claim to use the historical-grammatical method. But I agree with Bauckham that "the love of God" (and their particular view of it) is what their real foundation is. They will tell you as much.

Does the love of God 'trump' what the Bible really says in universalist thinking? The 'biblical-basis' for universalism has at least three primary ingredients: 1. The meaning of certain Greek words are stretched to fit into the system; if alternate meanings are possible, the one they select 'will fit', 2. Choosing certain 'support' verses [or just parts of verses] which are read overly literally [and thus, incorrectly], and, 3. This 'reading' is separated from the authors' context and train of thought: Therefore, the subjective meaning is taken true. Of course, for them these things are necessary because "God is love" (and ONLY love, as they see Him).....

Seen in an "all possible worlds" scenario, it could potentially be that God's love is so strong, so overlooking of evils, so forgiving, so inescapable, that everyone who ever lived will be saved. Theoretically speaking, it might be that everyone who lived or will live is saved already. If the Bible is about "God is love" alone...it could be true.

If everyone is already saved...I was much happier when I was a Buddhist. My problems were mere illusions, the vision of Maya. Life was simple, relatively easy, and care-free. I could be an alcoholic and drink, and drink as as much as I wanted, with no worries whatsoever about "not inheriting God's kingdom" (1 Corinthians 6:9-11). A case of beer would go over pretty good right now...I just got laid off from my job.

Do you think I should convert back to Buddhism, Homer?
Rick
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Post by _Homer » Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:32 am

Rick,
Seen in an "all possible worlds" scenario, it could potentially be that God's love is so strong, so overlooking of evils, so forgiving, so inescapable, that everyone who ever lived will be saved. Theoretically speaking, it might be that everyone who lived or will live is saved already. If the Bible is about "God is love" alone...it could be true.
But if this is true, then as the article points out, the scriptures are deceptive, giving a false impression of God, and the "true" gospel is esoteric. The article says what, in a general way, I have suspected all along.
If everyone is already saved...I was much happier when I was a Buddhist. My problems were mere illusions, the vision of Maya. I had no God to give an account to. Life was totally simple and relatively easy and care-free.

Do you think I should convert back to Buddhism, Homer?
Nope!
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Post by _Rick_C » Thu Nov 08, 2007 10:45 am

Post edited, 23 NOV 2007
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:25 am

But in my old way of thinking---"The HELL with it!"---so if the "secret" is: I could go to Gehenna (Hell) for, say, 10,000 years (or however long) to pay for it LATER....
I'm gonna GO GET DRUNK RIGHT NOW.

Why not?


Hmm, Let me try to think of a reason. Getting drunk verses 10,000 years in gehenna.
Good gosh this is a tough one, how about getting drunk verses a 100,000 years or a million years Rick, what would it take?
How about this reason, because you love God and want to serve Him! :D
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Post by __id_1679 » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:45 am

Hey Rick,

Quote " Seen in an "all possible worlds" scenario, it could potentially be that God's love is so strong, so overlooking of evils, so forgiving, so inescapable, that everyone who ever lived will be saved. Theoretically speaking, it might be that everyone who lived or will live is saved already. If the Bible is about "God is love" alone...it could be true".

I can only imagine what went through the minds of people as the FLOOD
drowned them out of existense, " well that's ok God. I know you love me".
...slurp, gurgle...splash...
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:59 am

I can only imagine what went through the minds of people as the FLOOD
drowned them out of existense, " well that's ok God. I know you love me".
...slurp, gurgle...splash...




Ever hear of tough love Bob?
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Post by _Rick_C » Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:26 pm

STEVE,
You wrote:Hmm, Let me try to think of a reason. Getting drunk verses 10,000 years in gehenna.
Good gosh this is a tough one, how about getting drunk verses a 100,000 years or a million years Rick, what would it take?
How about this reason, because you love God and want to serve Him!
I do love God, Steve! I love Him because he saved my soul not just from alcoholism but for all eternity. I love Him because he saved me before I died...an alcoholic's death. I love Him because had I died that way I would have been lost for all eternity. We don't have a second chance after we die.

If any unbelievers (in Jesus) are reading this thread: Please come to God though believing in Christ now. Your life will be saved, totally rearranged for the better, and preserved by God in new ways. Your future will be with God and Jesus forever after you die! (That will be awesome...too awesome to fully describe)!

Rick
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Post by __id_1679 » Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:10 pm

Steve7150

Yeah, I've heard of "tough love". Have you ever heard of "burning love"?
I wonder what those in Gehenna will be singing.." I'm just a "hunk-a hunk-a-burnin-love"...perhaps? 8)
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Post by _Mort_Coyle » Thu Nov 08, 2007 11:31 pm

Homer,

I was only able to give the article you posted a cursory reading today, but it looks quite good. Thanks for posting it! I have printed it off and will read it again when time permits. I'm sure I will have some points of disagreement with the author, but I appreciate they way he presents his case.

BTW, the fact that Origen was influenced by Plato should not be surprising considering his place and time. I think the author of the article perhaps overstates the case, but I'll withhold further judgment until I've read it more carefully.
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