Universalism and the Character of God

[Guest]

Hello Todd,

If Zeph 3:8-9 is indeed about universal reconcilliation, and telling us that "all" people (that of the entire human race) will eventually be "saved", then I would say "Praise God", lets talk about something else.

But, I think you are reading more into the passage than what it is telling us. To be sure both words of judgement and reconcilliation are being used.
The background of Zephaniah's prophecy is impotant to consider when trying to understand a particular passage. Israel was in apostacy. They had forfeited their right to live. They were called to repent. If they repent, perhaps God would spare or hide them from the coming wrath. 2:1-3:8
That God is commanding repentance before His wrath is poured out
is abundantly clear. The beneficiaries of HIs restoration and reconcilliation
are to those and only to those who repent.

Lets continue in the passage, those portions you chose to leave out:

Zeph. 3:11-13 " On that Day, you will not be put to shame for the wrongs you have done to ME, because I will remove from this city those who rejoice in their pride. Never again will you be haughty on my Holy Hill. But I will leave within you the meek and humble, WHO TRUST IN THE NAME OF THE LORD. THE REMNANT OF ISRAEL will do no wrong.."

The context clearly qualifies "who" will recieve God's reconcilliation
and restoration. Those who repent first. If there is no repentance, as the passage indicates, they are removed. God does not "purify" first, then call to repentance! Clearly the language of removal and what is left after His judgements fall, are the meek and humble, i.e. the remnant!

Nice try though!

[Guest]

Danny,

Quote: "Jesus is Lord of all. What does that mean? I believe that means his will will ultimately be done. Scripture clearly and repeatedly states that His will is to save all mankind. "Thy will be done..."

Is there a difference between the desire of God and the will of God to save all men? Do the two words; will/desire, always say and mean the same thing? Are they always interchangable?

I gotta go to work now...but lets talk about it.

[Guest]

Nice try though!

Bob,

You missed the point. I was not trying to prove Universal Reconciliation by quoting that passage. I was showing that the style and language are similar to passages in the New Testament which are used to "prove" eternal torment or annihilation. The point is that one cannot assume that the "burning" and "consuming" is the end of the story. This passage provides a clear example that restoration and reconciliation can (and does, imo) occur after such an event.

Todd

[Guest]

Greetings,

The context clearly qualifies "who" will recieve God's reconcilliation and restoration. Those who repent first. If there is no repentance, as the passage indicates, they are removed. God does not "purify" first, then call to repentance! Clearly the language of removal and what is left after His judgements fall, are the meek and humble, i.e. the remnant!

Then Todd replied:
You missed the point. I was not trying to prove Universal Reconciliation by quoting that passage. I was showing that the style and language are similar to passages in the New Testament which are used to "prove" eternal torment or annihilation. The point is that one cannot assume that the "burning" and "consuming" is the end of the story. This passage provides a clear example that restoration and reconciliation can (and does, imo) occur after such an event.

First, universalists have to prove that unbelievers are God's Elect People. The reason is, the "restoration" that the Bible talks about in both Testaments is about and for God's Elect. Universalism falsely teaches all people are God's Elect, unbeliever's included---even when some may not believe God exists, leave alone believe in Him for their salvation if they do!

Next, a relationship can't be restored if it hasn't begun. Both Testaments teach faith and trust in God are the essential elements of having a relationship with God. A former believer in God can be "restored" to a right relationship to Him. But a non-believer who has never believed hasn't had a saving [right] relationship with God to begin.

Both Testaments also speak about reconciliation in two ways:
1. The reconciliation of God's Elect back into a right relationship with God (Jews, in the OT). In OT times they needed to repent and return to Yahweh (God). In the NT, the restoration-and-reconciliation of Israel to God began when Jesus came to them. The "remnant" of the Jews believed in Jesus and became His followers before He died. Later in the book of Acts, Israel [the Jews] were still called to repent and believe in Jesus, as they're still being called today.
2. God reconciling the world [and all and anyone in it] to Himself in Christ. Here, reconciliation is going from being Enemies of God and coming into a right relationship with Him for the first time! In NT times, Jews could both be restored and reconciled to God through their Messiah. Actually, a modern day Jew can be said to experience both of these things if he/she believes!

Yet the world being reconciled to God through Christ has this other 'universal' dimension for those who have never been among His Elect. This reconciliation came through Jesus and goes out to all who have always been God's enemy. If you're God's enemy and have had an adversarial relationship against Him; through faith in Him, you can now become His Friend!

Notice how this passage [Zeph 3:8-9] sounds a lot like 2 Pet 3:7-13.

Yes, it has a similar "sound". But you're missing THE key element. Namely, both Testaments teach that only God's Elect [people who believe] will be saved from God's wrath; this is probably 'first' among the many things that salvation is! Only the Saved inherit God's Kingdom, are spared His wrath, and come into the new heavens and earth.

The universalist belief that "all people who ever live or will live are God's Elect"---whether they believe in Jesus or not---has no basis from the Bible.

Rick

[Guest]

First, universalists have to prove that unbelievers are God's Elect People. The reason is, the "restoration" that the Bible talks about in both Testaments is about and for God's Elect. Universalism falsely teaches all people are God's Elect, unbeliever's included---even when some may not believe God exists, leave alone believe in Him for their salvation if they do!


We are all unbelievers up until the point we believe then we are elected by believing.
CU teaches that unbelievers do not escape God's wrath at all, only that it's not eternal.
CU teaches that although it is faith that pleases God it's belief and making Jesus your Lord that saves.
The difference is that we see nothing in the bible nailing physical death as the deadline.
There is judgment coming but the greek word for judgment "krisis" conspicously allows for proportional punishment and restoration to God.
The opportunities to know Jesus in this life vary so dramatically from person to person i think for God to offer an equal playing field seems just to me.
I did'nt know who Jesus was 6 years ago, mind you i did'nt reject him , but i simply thought he was some type of prophet.
So if a car ran me over back then what would have happened to me?
I guess Rick and company would figure that i must have been another God hating person getting what i deserved.

[Guest]

Steve,

First, universalists have to prove that unbelievers are God's Elect People. The reason is, the "restoration" that the Bible talks about in both Testaments is about and for God's Elect. Universalism falsely teaches all people are God's Elect, unbeliever's included---even when some may not believe God exists, leave alone believe in Him for their salvation if they do!

You replied:
We are all unbelievers up until the point we believe then we are elected by believing.

First, there's nothing in your post that offers any biblical evidence that every person who has ever lived, or who ever will live, are already God's Elect. The Bible, cover to cover, shows that not everyone is or ever will be!

Second, the Bible teaches God has His Own Special People whom He "elects". In OT times these people were the Jews. Today He selects them from anyone in the world, Jewish or not. How to know if you are one of God's People is: If you have faith in Jesus, you ARE! Only God Himself knows how many people are and/or will become His Elect. In the meantime, we don't know who they are, or where they are, and are called to bring His Call to everyone, everywhere.

CU teaches that unbelievers do not escape God's wrath at all, only that it's not eternal.

I'm going to start a new thread on this: That universalists teach unbelievers will be "saved" by NOT BEING SAVED. And that, by going to Hell. This is the product of pure imagination and goes AGAINST what the Bible teaches about Salvation.

CU teaches that although it is faith that pleases God it's belief and making Jesus your Lord that saves.

No, it doesn't. It teaches that only people who become Christians before they die are going to be "saved" ... Oooooops, wait a minute. It teaches people who never believed will die and get sent to Hell to be "saved by not being saved"....No, I don't think so!

The difference is that we see nothing in the bible nailing physical death as the deadline.

The Bible teaches that salvation comes to those who believe before they die; namely, "saved" people won't go to Hell. Universalism's denial of this shows just how far they oppose what the Bible says. Secondly, the Bible is so crystal clear that salvation is obtained before death! But universalists are, somehow, blind to it. What the reason or reasons for this are, I don't know....

There is judgment coming but the greek word for judgment "krisis" conspicously allows for proportional punishment and restoration to God.

So say the universalists. So SAID NOT the Apostles!

The opportunities to know Jesus in this life vary so dramatically from person to person i think for God to offer an equal playing field seems just to me. I did'nt know who Jesus was 6 years ago, mind you i did'nt reject him , but i simply thought he was some type of prophet. So if a car ran me over back then what would have happened to me?

The Bible teaches that God sent His Son to save all who believe. This is what the Apostles taught and me too. NO APOSTLE EVER ASKED "Will people be saved if they haven't believed in Jesus?" Since I don't ask it either, my answer to you is: God so loved the world that he gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life.

I guess Rick and company would figure that i must have been another God hating person getting what i deserved.

To quote Ronald Reagan to Jimmy Carter, "Well, there you go again"---putting words in my mouth and thoughts in my head! SHAME ON YOU!
I have no idea if you hated God or how much! How am I suppose to know? And I'm not going to continue to reply to comments like this from you, Steve.....

I am, however, VERY glad you found out Jesus wasn't just a prophet! And I'm happy you got saved and will be saved from the wrath to come [which is the primary meaning of what it means to "be saved"].

Have a good weekend,
Rick

[Guest]

I have no idea if you hated God or how much! How am I suppose to know? And I'm not going to continue to reply to comments like this from you, Steve.....

I am, however, VERY glad you found out Jesus wasn't just a prophet! And I'm happy you got saved and will be saved from the wrath to come [which is the primary meaning of what it means to "be saved"].


Rick, I did'nt hate God at all, not one bit. But i had no idea who Jesus was, not a clue and you can't believe in him if you're unaware of who he is.
Of course if you're born into a bible believing Christian family that would give you quite a leg up.
But the problem is that most people in the world are'nt.

[Guest]

Second, the Bible teaches God has His Own Special People whom He "elects". In OT times these people were the Jews. Today He selects them from anyone in the world, Jewish or not. How to know if you are one of God's People is: If you have faith in Jesus, you ARE! Only God Himself knows how many people are and/or will become His Elect. In the meantime, we don't know who they are, or where they are, and are called to bring His Call to everyone, everywhere.


Not quite Rick because the Sinatic covenant was conditional on obedience, it was not an election.
Secondly Rick the covenant was available to anyone like Ruth for example or Egyptians who fled with the Israelites.
Thirdly Rick it was'nt a covenant of salvation, the jews were a chosen people to reveal the commandments of God and keeping the law meant God's blessings in this life.
It sounds like your a calvinist now, is this a recent conversion Rick?

[Guest]

Steve,

Rick, I did'nt hate God at all, not one bit. But i had no idea who Jesus was, not a clue and you can't believe in him if you're unaware of who he is.

Exactly! And Thank God! Paul wrote what he and we believe:
How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard?
And how will they hear without a preacher? (Ro 10:14)

Of course if you're born into a bible believing Christian family that would give you quite a leg up.

Yes, indeed, it would.
But being born into a Christian family doesn't mean one will automatically believe. It's the same for everyone as Paul wrote: for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED {Joel 2:32}" (Ro 10:13)

But the problem is that most people in the world are'nt.

How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS! {Is 52:7, Nah 1:15}" (Ro 10:15)

The real problem is people need to hear the Gospel!
Universalism invents 'other solutions'---that don't and won't work!

I think the time people spend trying to "imagine" other ways that God "might" save people is a waste of time in more ways than one. First, people need to hear! So let's get with it and tell them! Second, it is a waste of the intellect and living in unreality to try to think that we, in our imaginations, can invent new ways for salvation!

“Our uncorrected thinking, influenced by the blindness of our natural hearts and the intrusive ubiquity of visible things, tends to draw contrast between the spiritual and the real, but actually no such contrast exists. The antithesis lies elsewhere, between the real and the imaginary, between the spiritual and the material, between the temporal and the eternal; but between the spiritual and the real, never. The spiritual is real.”

People who go by their feelings or emotions are going by what Tozer calls their 'natural hearts'. They aren't going to be able to see the spiritual truths the Bible teaches but will get everything mixed up, imagining all kinds of things that are unreal like: universalism!

Neither our 'natural hearts' nor the 'natural wisdom' that comes from them can comprehend and grasp the spiritual realities of the Bible!

Rick

P.S. Steve, I just saw your last post...you're 'trailing away' from me again. Neither Calvinism nor 'covenants' are what I'm talking about. Try to "stay with me" if you would, please. In the meantime, I'm still working on a new thread. Thanks & have a good weekend.

[Guest]

P.S. Steve, I just saw your last post...you're 'trailing away' from me again. Neither Calvinism nor 'covenants' are what I'm talking about. Try to "stay with me" if you would, please. In the meantime, I'm still working on a new thread. Thanks & have a good weekend


Trust me Rick, i'm trying.
It's just that you mentioned God's "elect" and that is a Calvinist phrase, so i was just wondering.