The Narrow Path Ministries

Hi all,

I found an interesting article by J.I. Packer called Evangelical Annihilationism in Review. I thought I would pass it on.

It can be found HERE

One interesting thought was this:

"Nowhere in Scripture does death signify extinction; physical death is departure into another mode of being, called sheol or hades, and metaphorical death is existence that is God-less and graceless; nothing in biblical usage warrants the idea, found in Guillebaud30 and others, that the “second death” of Revelation 2:11; 20:14; 21:8 means or involves cessation of being."

I wonder though, does the bible teach (aside from The Rich Man and Lazarus) that Sheol is a place where there is consciousness?

Ecc 9:5,10 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten...Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest...


I would love to hear some responses to the article!


God bless!

I wonder though, does the bible teach (aside from The Rich Man and Lazarus) that Sheol is a place where there is consciousness?

I would argue that the story of The Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31 was not intended to teach about the afterlife, in the same way that the parable of The Sower wasn't intended to teach about agriculture.

The tale of the Rich Man and Lazarus was not created by Jesus. It had been around for quite some time and appears in the Babylonian Gemara (where the Rich Man is given the name Dives). The story's purpose was to promote justice towards the poor by the rich. It used views of Heaven and Hell which developed during the Inter-Testamental period but originated in the Babylonian captivity. One can see just how intricate this view of the afterlife had become by reading through the pseudepigraphal Book of Enoch (aka 1 Enoch) which was hugely popular at the time of Jesus and is quoted from in Jude's Epistle (which, btw, caused it to be viewed as inspired scripture by Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origen, Clement of Alexandria and Tertullian). Many of our assumptions about angels, demons, Heaven, Hell and Satan come from the Book of Enoch (though most Christians seem to be unaware of it).

Jesus "tweaks" this well-known story by converting it into a parable about Jews and Gentiles. If you look at its setting in Luke's Gospel, including its placement following the parables of the Great Banquet, Lost Sheep, Lost Coin, Lost Son, etc., this becomes clear. Jesus casts the Jewish hierarchy into the role of Dives and the sinners and Gentiles into the role of Lazarus. The Rich Man's descent into Hell and Lazarus' welcome into "Abraham's Bosom" speak of God's rejection of Israel (who had the blessings of covenant but horded them) and acceptance of Gentiles and sinners into the Kingdom.

So, back to your question, in the Old Testament writings Sheol is a place where consciousness is non-existent (or shadowy and barely existent at best). Gradually, and particularly in the Inter-Testamental period, Sheol (by then also known as Hades due to Greek influences) evolved into an elaborate, multi-compartmentalized, subterranean abode where the dead consciously awaited the resurrection, either in comfort or in torment.

So, I would disagree with Packer's statement that "Nowhere in Scripture does death signify extinction." If he had said "Nowhere in the New Testament does death signify extinction" I would have agreed.

Derek wrote:I would love to hear some responses to the article!


God bless!

The nineteenth century was an era of bold challenges to past assumptions, bold dreams of things made better, and bold enterprise, both intellectual and technological, to bring this about. Historic Christian teaching about hell was called in question in light of the utilitarian and progressive conviction that retribution alone, with no prospect of anything or anyone being improved by it, is in no case a sufficient justification for punishment, let alone unending punishment. From this it seemed to follow that the idea of God maintaining anyone in permanent postmortem pain was unworthy of Him, and therefore the traditional view of eternal punishment must be abandoned, and another way of explaining the texts that appear to teach it must be found.

I agree with this argument, which is why I continue to study alternative ways to understand the texts.

For if, as the argument implies, it is needlessly cruel for God to keep the lost endlessly in being to suffer pain, because His justice does not require this, how can the annihilationists justify in terms of God’s justice the fact that He makes them suffer any postmortem pain at all? Why would not justice, which on this view requires their annihilation in any case, not be satisfied by annihilation at death? Biblical annihilationists, who cannot evade the biblical expectation of the Final Resurrection to judgment of unbelievers along-side believers, admit that God does not do this, and some, as we have seen, admit too that there will be some pain inflicted after judgment and prior to extinction; but if God’s justice requires no more than extinction, and therefore does not require this, the pain becomes needless cruelty, and God is thus in effect accused of the very fault of which annihilationists are anxious to prove Him innocent and to condemn the Christian mainstream for implying; while if God’s justice really does require some penal pain in addition to annihilation, and continued hostility, rebellion, and impenitence Godward on the part of unbelievers remains a postmortem fact, there will be no moment at which it will be possible for either God or man to say that enough punishment has been inflicted, no more is deserved, and any more would be unjust. The argument thus boomerangs on its proponents, impaling them inescapably on the horns of this dilemma.

If annihilationism is correct, it must occur at physical death (Rom 1:32).

But I still believe in Paul's explanation in 1 Cor 15. Christ will continue to reign until all his enemies willingly are subject unto Him. At this point every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Christ is Lord. Once this occurs death will be destroyed, and all will be raised incorruptible. After this there is no mention of Judgment, only that Christ turns everything over to God that He can be All in All.

Todd

The tale of the Rich Man and Lazarus was not created by Jesus. It had been around for quite some time and appears in the Babylonian Gemara (where the Rich Man is given the name Dives).

I have read about this document (the Gemara), in one of Thomas Thayers wriitings, but have been unabel to find it online. Do you know where I could find it?

God bless,

There are four contemporary translations of the Babylonian Talmud (including Gemara) into English:
* The Soncino Hebrew-English Talmud Isidore Epstein, Soncino Press. In this translation, each English page faces the Aramaic/Hebrew page. Notes on each page provide additional background material. See also: http://www.soncino.com
* The Talmud of Babylonia. An American Translation, Jacob Neusner, Tzvee Zahavy, others. Atlanta: 1984-1995: Scholars Press for Brown Judaic Studies. Complete.
* The Schottenstein Edition of the Talmud, Mesorah Publications. In this translation, each English page faces the Aramaic/Hebrew page. The English pages are elucidated and heavily annotated; each Aramaic/Hebrew page of Talmud typically requires three English pages of translation. See also: http://www.artscroll.com/Talmud1.htm
* The Talmud: The Steinsaltz Edition Adin Steinsaltz, Random House (incomplete). This work is in fact a translation of Rabbi Steinsaltz' Hebrew language translation of and commentary on the entire Talmud. See also: http://www.steinsaltz.org/dynamic/content.asp?id=17

Here is the only online translation that I'm aware of, which is the Soncino version: http://www.come-and-hear.com/talmud/index.html

It is five and a half million words in length. Enjoy!

It is five and a half million words in length. Enjoy

Yikes! Do you know where the story is found in there?

Thanks for the links.

I think it's on page 3,962,758. Or thereabouts.

Unfortunately I cannot give you the exact location. I'm in the process of moving and all my books and reference materials are boxed up (and even if they weren't, I'm not sure I could find it). You might be able to find it footnoted in one of Edersheim's books, such as "The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah". I'd love to own a hardcopy of the Babylonian Gemara but, as you can imagine, it's quite expensive.

there apparently is an online searchable version here:

http://www.come-and-hear.com/talmud/index.html

but i didnt have any luck. not even sure if this is the right document to search.

my pastor is not convinced that the story really exists outside of NT, because everyone quotes to it but no one has ever seen it or read it for themselves- this seems to be true- when you google "gemara babylonicum" it almost invariably takes you to this quote, from Thomas Thayer's "The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment:"

It must also be remembered that this is only a parable, and not a real history; for, as Dr. Whitby affirms, "we find this very parable in the Gemara Babylonicum." The story was not new, then, not original with Christ, but known among the Jews before He repeated it. He borrowed the parable from them, and employed it to show the judgment which awaited them.

or, to this quote:

The story was probably familiar to his hearers and our Saviour for that reason took occasion to make a practical application of it. In "Paige's Selections," we find the following from Dr. Whitby--"That this is a parable, and not a real history of what was actually done, is evident (1) Because we find this very parable in the Gemara Babylonicum whence it is cited by Mr. Sheringham, in the preface to his Joma

which is apparently from a commentary by a Dr Adam Clark.

The problem with these quotes is that they are hearsay, at least to a degree.

i surely would like a definitive answer of whether this "alternate version" of the story actually exists. this passage is a main sticking point for eternal torment proponents.

TK

I would really like to check it out. I found the searchable version and wasn't able to come up with anything.

i surely would like a definitive answer of whether this "alternate version" of the story actually exists. this passage is a main sticking point for eternal torment proponents.

I don't think there is anything in the story that an Annihilationist, or even a Universalist for that matter, couldn't believe, because it does not mention the duration of the punishment of the rich man.

The only problem that the passage poses to me, is the idea that the wicked who died a thousand years ago, get punished a thousand years more than the (potentially less wicked) who die the day before the judgement.

If Lazarus and the Rich Man is a parable, epsecially one the truth of which Jesus does not necessarilly confirm, it would help me to accept that the wicked "sleep" until the judgement. I get that from here:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

I'm amillenial, so I take the thousand years to be the church age. Therefore I see the saints here reigning with Christ, while the wicked who are not in Christ, "live not again" until the thousand years are finished" (i.e. Jesus comes back, judgement, etc.).

For obvious reasons the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus poses difficulties for this view.

Let me know if you find it!

Couple of quick points.

For those who have heard that Josephus wrote a description of hades which perfectly matched the Lazarus and Rich Man parable;

Ely wrote:apparently, "Josephus' Disocurse on Hades" was in reality wrriten by Hyppolytus (i.e. a third century Christian) and was entitled "Against Plato, on the Cause of the Universe." You can read it here: http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf ... 85_1161987

To read about how it got attributed to Josephus, read here: http://members.aol.com/FlJosephus2/Mail ... #discourse

So, apparently, this text is of no value is of little value in revealing Jewish conceptions of Hades in Jesus' time. If so, then we must look at what other historical evidence to suppose that Jesus was affirming the idea of an immediate conscious existence after death.

Also, concerning the Talmud, you can find it at sacred-texts:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/talmud.htm

I'd also highly recommend John Gill's comentary as he provides loads of quotations from rabbis. He might be able to shed some light on any Jewish traditons that Jesus may have been alluding to:
http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view. ... hapter=016

Shalom
Ely