Universalism and not inheriting the kingdom of God

[Guest]

But it still doesn't satisfactorily answer my question. In your answer, when Hugh Heffner is resurrected, he is still God's enemy and must be punished. Yet Paul says that death is the last enemy - that all of his enemies have been subdued before the resurrection. This is why that I continue to believe that all of God's judgment and deserved wrath must occur during our lifetime. "He that is dead is freed from sin" (Rom 6:7).

Todd, Heffner won't be God's enemy he will be a child of God who was deceived by the devil and by his own lusts. Heffner made a choice and i believe a conscience choice to rebel against God and take millions with him. But he won't be detroyed by God in the LOF because by then "All enemies will be under his feet" but he still must reap what he sowed , and what he sowed affected millions of men away from God and straight to the devil and the ramifications to those men and their families is incalculable. That is, incalculable to everyone except God.

[Guest]

Matt 5:38-42
38 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Ciara, Just want to add that IMO here Jesus is telling us not to act as judge and try to extract an "eye for an eye." This is best left to God because it is his place to judge the intentions of the heart , but Jesus is not overturning God's moral standards, only telling us as believers how to conduct ourselves.

[_Derek]

In 2 Thess 1 we are told that Jesus would be "revealed from heaven." I think that we agree that this has something to do with His "coming." If he comes then He must be in our "presence." Therefore, as a result of Him being present, something is destroyed. It is His presence that does the destroying. This is the way I read the context.

When it says that Jesus was revealed "from heaven" do think that He came "away from" heaven to come here, or that "from heaven" means "as a result of"? It's the same word. Very different meanings in the same context according to your system though. Obviously, it means "away from" heaven.

It seams that you are interpreting this word to mean "as a result of" to stay consistent in you system, even though the word doesn't actually mean what you want it to.

If I said, "I broke my ankle from stepping on a rock," you would understand that I broke my ankle "as a result of" stepping on a rock. Or if I said, "I caught the flu from walking in the rain," you would understand that I caught the flu "as a result of" walking in the rain. If I had substituted "away from" for the word "from" in these statements, they would make no sense.

Yes, in English this is a meaningful statement, but I'm not so sure about the greek in the passage we are looking at. Can you provide some examples of this word being used the way that you are saying. It's used a lot, so I didn't look at every single occurence, but I was unable to find any examples. Just look at Pauls use of it in 2 Thes:

2Th 1:2 Grace unto you and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. (I realize that here it could be said that it is "because of" God, since it comes "from" Him but this is not like the English usage in your example).

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

2Th 3:2 And2532 that2443 we may be delivered4506 from575 unreasonable824 and2532 wicked4190 men:444 for1063 all3956 men have not3756 faith.4102

2Th 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall establish you, and keep you from evil.

It is evident that the word means somthing like "away from" in the vast majority of times it is used. I hope that if you can't provided a solid example or two of the word being used like you are saying it is that you will concede that the word means "away from".

God bless Todd,

[_Derek]

Derek,

I am curious. According to your system, when Paul says,.....

Acts 24:15
I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

Does this include all of mankind that has ever lived, or only those who have not been annihilated?

The reason for this question is this: If the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death, then when all are raised Christ has no enemies. Why would He then annihilate someone who is not His enemy?

Todd

Yes it includes all of mankind. I don't see how it follows that Christ will have no more enemies here. I see death and and those who are to die, being destroyed, or at least consigned to, destruction, at the same time per. Rev. 20.

Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
Joh 5:29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

This is what I see the bible teaching. I am assuming that you spiritualize this because it speaks of judgement happening to "those who have done evil" after they die, and are ressurected, but I don't see it (as of now).


I think that Rev. 20 is about the end of the world, even though I take a preterist view of most of the book. I see these events being described, but in no particular chronilogical order.

I see the world being destroyed:

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. (cf 2Peter 3:10)

Ressurection and judgement:

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. (cf. Jn. 5:28-29)

And restoration: (Rev. 21).

I was wondering, which verses concerning the ressurection do you take litterally?

God bless bro,

[_Derek]

I deleted this...

[_Derek]

This child also drew a horrific image of hell which included graphic details. . . quite unsettled all the teachers. How should I have answered this question and handled this drawing?

from the mouths of babes. . .

Hi CJ,

I would tell the child that God loves the world so much, that He made a way for all that want Him to be with Him and be saved. But that not all people want to know God. God, although perfectly loveing, is also perfectly just, and as a result He has to execute justice.

I would also correct thier middle ages inspired view of what hell is like.

God bless,

[Guest]

A few minutes ago i was flipping through the TV channels and came across a program essentially ranking the richest celebrities. it talked about the millions they make, the numerous homes they live in, the jewelry they buy, the places they travel to, etc etc (Rick Warren was on the list, BTW- but apparently he gives away 90%).

i have asked this before, I think, but i still do not think i have rec'd a satisfactory answer. If Todd's view is correct, and everybody is "saved" albeit after being punished for their sins (but ONLY during this lifetime), then what advantage is there to living a Christian life? these celebrities and sports stars are, in a way, experiencing heaven on earth. they have the finest of everything; they do what they want to do.

why not simply make hedonism our lifestyle? pleasure on earth, more pleasure in heaven. no post-death punishment to worry about. what a deal!

many of us may have made decisions in our past that quite possibly seriously hampered our "possibilities for hedonism." for e.g. perhaps we chose career paths that would earn us less money because of other considerations (like spending time with family, etc). we have stayed faithful to our spouses. we sacrifice entertainment so that we can give more to ministry etc.

but if Todd's view is correct, there is no reason to do so. might as well eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die (w/ no fear of punishment to worry about).

i mean, can you imagine God saying "well done, my good and faithful servant" to the likes of Hitler and Hefner? come on now!

TK

[mgarrett]

To All:

I am certainly glad that God is my judge because He is merciful.

Lam 3:21-24
21 But this I call to mind,and therefore I have hope: 22 The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases;his mercies never come to an end; 23 they are new every morning;great is your faithfulness. 24 The Lord is my portion, says my soul,therefore I will hope in him.

I think we have hashed out these arguments enough and have now begun re-hashing the same things. I have made my case and you have made yours.

Everyone who has participated should be commended for rigorously defending his/her view. This is how it should be.

This is my last post on this thread.

My God truly bless each of you.

Todd

[Guest]

Todd,

I want to thank you for patiently explaining your views here. I'm not sure where I stand on this issue...I have a lot more reading and studying to do, but you've provided much food for thought. I hope you join in on other discussions more often.

Happy New Year!

God bless you,
Michelle

[Guest]

i have asked this before, I think, but i still do not think i have rec'd a satisfactory answer. If Todd's view is correct, and everybody is "saved" albeit after being punished for their sins (but ONLY during this lifetime), then what advantage is there to living a Christian life? these celebrities and sports stars are, in a way, experiencing heaven on earth. they have the finest of everything; they do what they want to do.

TK,

I have read this question more than once, but kept out of it. It seems to assume that anyone reaching "heaven" receives the same reward. I suspect since our Lord advised us to store up for ourselves treasures in heaven that there must be some reward that makes it worthwhile for those of us who live for Him on earth, don't you think? I believe that whether or not we are all "saved" (delivered from our sins?) and whether or not we all get to go to "heaven", those of us who lived out our lives for God will enjoy the life after much more. So I think your question is based on an incorrect premise.

BTW: Todd, I too hope you continue to post.

Mike