Derek,
I am curious. According to your system, when Paul says,.....
Acts 24:15
I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.
Does this include all of mankind that has ever lived, or only those who have not been annihilated?
The reason for this question is this: If the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death, then when all are raised Christ has no enemies. Why would He then annihilate someone who is not His enemy?
Todd
Universalism and not inheriting the kingdom of God
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_Father_of_five
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_STEVE7150
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Acts 24:15
I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.
Does this include all of mankind that has ever lived, or only those who have not been annihilated?
The reason for this question is this: If the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death, then when all are raised Christ has no enemies. Why would He then annihilate someone who is not His enemy?
Because death and hades are destroyed after unbelievers are resurrected "this is the second death" Rev 20.14. And then anyone not found in the book of life is cast into the LOF. Therefore since death is destroyed before unbelievers are tossed into the LOF it would appear to leave only two alternatives, either eternal damnation is true or if people can be saved through the LOF then universalism is true.
I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.
Does this include all of mankind that has ever lived, or only those who have not been annihilated?
The reason for this question is this: If the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death, then when all are raised Christ has no enemies. Why would He then annihilate someone who is not His enemy?
Because death and hades are destroyed after unbelievers are resurrected "this is the second death" Rev 20.14. And then anyone not found in the book of life is cast into the LOF. Therefore since death is destroyed before unbelievers are tossed into the LOF it would appear to leave only two alternatives, either eternal damnation is true or if people can be saved through the LOF then universalism is true.
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Todd,
If I understand you, you believe that God only punishes the wicked as described in Roman's 1 & 2; God "gave them over" to their punishment. However, Romans 1:32 informs us of God's judgement regarding them: death (eternal, I believe). What they suffer in this life is the natural consequence of their behavior.
God has established a natural order that we violate at our peril. You stand on wet ground and touch a 230 volt wire you are likely dead or severely injured. The sexually promiscuous are vulnerable to AIDS. The drunkard may ruin his liver and die, etc. I could add many more. God of course has a veto over all this. And yet, innocent children get AIDS too. So are these consequences the result of God's intervention or the results expected of a natural system He has set up and occasionally intervenes in?
Under the Old Covenant, God's blessings and punishments were understood to occur in this life. Under the New Covenant, can you show us one time where Jesus or the Apostles threatened those who refused to obey the gospel with temporal, physical, or corporeal punishment? Were they threatened with poverty, sickness, or any temporal calamities? Were not the sanctions of Christ "He that believeth not shall be condemned", they that "obey not the gospel shall be punished with an everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" and "Repent, or you shall all likewise perish"? And when do they perish? In this life or after? I can't recall Him threatening loss of health, wealth, property, loved ones, or even happiness in this life. Is your punishment an altogether subjective one?
On the other hand, do we find any promise of health, property, wealth, prosperity, good crops, etc., etc., for those who obey the gospel? Are the only rewards subjective ones, in spite of the persecutions, estrangement from family, etc., that Jesus warned about? And then only to wind up in the same place, the righteous and the wicked?
If I understand you, you believe that God only punishes the wicked as described in Roman's 1 & 2; God "gave them over" to their punishment. However, Romans 1:32 informs us of God's judgement regarding them: death (eternal, I believe). What they suffer in this life is the natural consequence of their behavior.
God has established a natural order that we violate at our peril. You stand on wet ground and touch a 230 volt wire you are likely dead or severely injured. The sexually promiscuous are vulnerable to AIDS. The drunkard may ruin his liver and die, etc. I could add many more. God of course has a veto over all this. And yet, innocent children get AIDS too. So are these consequences the result of God's intervention or the results expected of a natural system He has set up and occasionally intervenes in?
Under the Old Covenant, God's blessings and punishments were understood to occur in this life. Under the New Covenant, can you show us one time where Jesus or the Apostles threatened those who refused to obey the gospel with temporal, physical, or corporeal punishment? Were they threatened with poverty, sickness, or any temporal calamities? Were not the sanctions of Christ "He that believeth not shall be condemned", they that "obey not the gospel shall be punished with an everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" and "Repent, or you shall all likewise perish"? And when do they perish? In this life or after? I can't recall Him threatening loss of health, wealth, property, loved ones, or even happiness in this life. Is your punishment an altogether subjective one?
On the other hand, do we find any promise of health, property, wealth, prosperity, good crops, etc., etc., for those who obey the gospel? Are the only rewards subjective ones, in spite of the persecutions, estrangement from family, etc., that Jesus warned about? And then only to wind up in the same place, the righteous and the wicked?
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A Berean
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_Father_of_five
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Homer,Homer wrote:Todd,
If I understand you, you believe that God only punishes the wicked as described in Roman's 1 & 2; God "gave them over" to their punishment. However, Romans 1:32 informs us of God's judgement regarding them: death (eternal, I believe). What they suffer in this life is the natural consequence of their behavior.
God has established a natural order that we violate at our peril. You stand on wet ground and touch a 230 volt wire you are likely dead or severely injured. The sexually promiscuous are vulnerable to AIDS. The drunkard may ruin his liver and die, etc. I could add many more. God of course has a veto over all this. And yet, innocent children get AIDS too. So are these consequences the result of God's intervention or the results expected of a natural system He has set up and occasionally intervenes in?
Under the Old Covenant, God's blessings and punishments were understood to occur in this life. Under the New Covenant, can you show us one time where Jesus or the Apostles threatened those who refused to obey the gospel with temporal, physical, or corporeal punishment? Were they threatened with poverty, sickness, or any temporal calamities? Were not the sanctions of Christ "He that believeth not shall be condemned", they that "obey not the gospel shall be punished with an everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" and "Repent, or you shall all likewise perish"? And when do they perish? In this life or after? I can't recall Him threatening loss of health, wealth, property, loved ones, or even happiness in this life. Is your punishment an altogether subjective one?
On the other hand, do we find any promise of health, property, wealth, prosperity, good crops, etc., etc., for those who obey the gospel? Are the only rewards subjective ones, in spite of the persecutions, estrangement from family, etc., that Jesus warned about? And then only to wind up in the same place, the righteous and the wicked?
I have already answered this question. Here is my answer again.
I should also add Rom 13 to this.Father_of_five wrote:Homer,
I must make myself perfectly clear. I never said anything about physical blessings or curses. The Lord makes the rain fall on the just and the unjust. Many of the just suffer with sickness, the untimely death of loved ones, loss of their jobs, persecution, etc, etc. While at the same time many of the unjust are very wealthy and in good health. But you see, the righteous, while in their trials, can have peace with God, can find joy in their struggles, and find rest in their labors, and the love of their family. But perhaps the unjust, in their worldly prosperity, harbor guilt, shame, jealousy, envy, lust, pride, hatred, selfish ambitions, etc. This is what I am talking about. It has nothing to do with your physical or worldly circumstances.
Remember in Romans 1 we are told that God pours out his wrath on the ungodly by giving them...
....over to uncleaness (v.24)
....over to vile passions (v.26)
....over to a debased mind (v.28 )
These things can happen to those who are very prosperous in a worldly sense.
Todd
Rom 13:1-4
1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
Todd
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_Father_of_five
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Steve, I don't interpret Rev 20 this way (as I have just recently posted). But I will ask you the same question. If the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death then why would He, after destroying death, either (1) annihilate, or (2) eternally punish someone who is not his enemy?STEVE7150 wrote:Because death and hades are destroyed after unbelievers are resurrected "this is the second death" Rev 20.14. And then anyone not found in the book of life is cast into the LOF. Therefore since death is destroyed before unbelievers are tossed into the LOF it would appear to leave only two alternatives, either eternal damnation is true or if people can be saved through the LOF then universalism is true.
Todd
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_STEVE7150
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Steve, I don't interpret Rev 20 this way (as I have just recently posted). But I will ask you the same question. If the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death then why would He, after destroying death, either (1) annihilate, or (2) eternally punish someone who is not his enemy?
Todd, If God destroyed death which Paul called the last enemy to to be destroyed then that would not allow for annihilation since there will be no more destruction after the second death. Like i said this would leave two alternatives either eternal damnation or punishment based on God's standard of justice based throughout the entire bible which is we reap what we sow.
The reason i disagree with your conclusion is because evil does not reap what it sows. What evil sows is not just the damage it does to the sower but to all the sower impacts in his life.
Let's use Hugh Heffner as an example. Over decades he has influenced millions of young males to follow a hedonistic lifestyle and according to you he is being mantally tormented in this lifetime. If Heffner has influenced 10 million men toward hedonism and away from Jesus then those lost souls is what he has sowed and he must reap for that because Paul said we reap what we sow. I recently saw Heffner interviewed and he was promoting his lifestyle and glorifying it , still unrepentent , still doing the devil's work. It's clear to me that he can not even come remotely close to paying for what he has done in this lifetime because his actions affect millions of other impressionable men.
Forgiveness does not exclude justice and justice must be addressed because that is the weightiest part of the law (Matt 23.23) and "love" fulfills the law but "justice" is the weightiest part of love.
But that does'nt mean that Heffner will be eternally damned because God has told us what his will is.
"Who will have all men to be saved , and come unto the knowledge of the truth" 1 Tim 2.4
"He doeth according to his will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth and none can stay his hand" Dan 4.35
"God is love" 1 John 4.8 "Love worketh no ill" Rom 13.10
"we trust in the living God who is the Savior of all men ESPECIALLY of those who believe" 1 Tim 4.10
Todd, If God destroyed death which Paul called the last enemy to to be destroyed then that would not allow for annihilation since there will be no more destruction after the second death. Like i said this would leave two alternatives either eternal damnation or punishment based on God's standard of justice based throughout the entire bible which is we reap what we sow.
The reason i disagree with your conclusion is because evil does not reap what it sows. What evil sows is not just the damage it does to the sower but to all the sower impacts in his life.
Let's use Hugh Heffner as an example. Over decades he has influenced millions of young males to follow a hedonistic lifestyle and according to you he is being mantally tormented in this lifetime. If Heffner has influenced 10 million men toward hedonism and away from Jesus then those lost souls is what he has sowed and he must reap for that because Paul said we reap what we sow. I recently saw Heffner interviewed and he was promoting his lifestyle and glorifying it , still unrepentent , still doing the devil's work. It's clear to me that he can not even come remotely close to paying for what he has done in this lifetime because his actions affect millions of other impressionable men.
Forgiveness does not exclude justice and justice must be addressed because that is the weightiest part of the law (Matt 23.23) and "love" fulfills the law but "justice" is the weightiest part of love.
But that does'nt mean that Heffner will be eternally damned because God has told us what his will is.
"Who will have all men to be saved , and come unto the knowledge of the truth" 1 Tim 2.4
"He doeth according to his will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth and none can stay his hand" Dan 4.35
"God is love" 1 John 4.8 "Love worketh no ill" Rom 13.10
"we trust in the living God who is the Savior of all men ESPECIALLY of those who believe" 1 Tim 4.10
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You are all brilliant Bible scolars who present an amazingly-deep discussion. I appreciate the privilege of 'listening in'. Here's a question for you. . . one asked by a thoughtful small child in my VBS class last summer:
from the mouths of babes. . .
cj
This child also drew a horrific image of hell which included graphic details. . . quite unsettled all the teachers. How should I have answered this question and handled this drawing?"If God loves people so much to send His only son to die for them, then why did He make Hell to send them to if they won't listen to Jesus?
from the mouths of babes. . .
cj
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_Father_of_five
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Steve,
This is an excellent post. You make very good points. But it still doesn't satisfactorily answer my question. In your answer, when Hugh Heffner is resurrected, he is still God's enemy and must be punished. Yet Paul says that death is the last enemy - that all of his enemies have been subdued before the resurrection. This is why that I continue to believe that all of God's judgment and deserved wrath must occur during our lifetime. "He that is dead is freed from sin" (Rom 6:7).
While we cannot understand what God is or is not doing to Hugh Heffner in his heart, we must not look on his "worldly" status and conclude that God is not punishing him as He sees fit.
Todd
This is an excellent post. You make very good points. But it still doesn't satisfactorily answer my question. In your answer, when Hugh Heffner is resurrected, he is still God's enemy and must be punished. Yet Paul says that death is the last enemy - that all of his enemies have been subdued before the resurrection. This is why that I continue to believe that all of God's judgment and deserved wrath must occur during our lifetime. "He that is dead is freed from sin" (Rom 6:7).
While we cannot understand what God is or is not doing to Hugh Heffner in his heart, we must not look on his "worldly" status and conclude that God is not punishing him as He sees fit.
Todd
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Has Jesus not paid the price for us? I know we all bear the consequences of our sins, but it's no longer 'an eye for an eye' as in the Old Testament. "Mercy triumphs over judgment" ~ only God discerns the intents of the heart.Matt 5:38-42
38 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Peace,
CJ
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_STEVE7150
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Has Jesus not paid the price for us? I know we all bear the consequences of our sins, but it's no longer 'an eye for an eye' as in the Old Testament. "Mercy triumphs over judgment" ~ only God discerns the intents of the heart.
Hi Ciara, What price did he pay? He paid the price to give us the opportunity to be reconciled to God. God's standard of justice "eye for eye" was repeated by Paul "we reap what we sow." Mercy does not exclude justice because in Hebrews it says that God chastises those that he loves and what good father does'nt chastise his children for their own benefit. So what you quoted "mercy triumphs over judgement" is not in the bible and in fact the bible teaches that mercy is judgement.
Re your daughter's impression of hell , we really are'nt told what hell or more correctly the "lake of fire" is, only that unbelievers enter it and IMHO after they reap what they sow and bow the knee to Christ may leave it. (Rev 22.17)
If God meant to keep unbelievers there permanently he would'nt call it a lake, he would call it an abyss sealed shut from which there is no escape.
Hi Ciara, What price did he pay? He paid the price to give us the opportunity to be reconciled to God. God's standard of justice "eye for eye" was repeated by Paul "we reap what we sow." Mercy does not exclude justice because in Hebrews it says that God chastises those that he loves and what good father does'nt chastise his children for their own benefit. So what you quoted "mercy triumphs over judgement" is not in the bible and in fact the bible teaches that mercy is judgement.
Re your daughter's impression of hell , we really are'nt told what hell or more correctly the "lake of fire" is, only that unbelievers enter it and IMHO after they reap what they sow and bow the knee to Christ may leave it. (Rev 22.17)
If God meant to keep unbelievers there permanently he would'nt call it a lake, he would call it an abyss sealed shut from which there is no escape.
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