Hell, eternal punishment... and literal flames?
Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:34 pm
For many people, the concept of eternal punishment (burning, flaming etc.) has been difficult to reconcile with the revealed character and nature of God. For instance, many people suppose that they have the correct understanding of God's ways, character and nature, and their understanding is widely accepted by most orthodox denominations of Christianity. Yet when they read and hear of a dante's inferno type view of hell, they are confident that this is not correct, and that this is not something that would follow from God's character and nature. To them, this understanding just can't be correct.
So, suppose that hell:
1) Is a place of punishment,
2) hell's inhabitants will be there in all eternity, but,
3) the flames are not literal.
Could this be?
J.P. Moreland says this, about the subject:
By JP Moreland
Two New Testament passages provide the clearest definition of hell we have. Second Thessalonians 1:9 says, "And these [who do not know God or obey the gospel] will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" (NASB).
The other passage, Matthew 25:41 and 46 states: "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels' … And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
From these (and other) verses we see that the essence of hell is the end of a road away from God, love, and anything of real value. It is banishment from the very presence of God and from the type of life we were made to live.
Hell is also a place of shame, sorrow, regret and anguish. This intense pain is not actively produced by God; He is not a cosmic torturer. Undoubtedly, anguish and torment will exist in hell. And because we will have both body and soul in the resurrected state (see 1 Corinthians 15 for more details), the anguish experienced can be both mental and physical. But the pain suffered will be due to the shame and sorrow resulting from the punishment of final, ultimate, unending banishment from God, His kingdom, and the good life for which we were created in the first place.
Hell is called a place of fire and darkness, but how could there be darkness if the fire is literal?
Moreover, the flames in hell are most likely metaphorical. If metaphors for hell are taken literally, contradictions result. Hell is called a place of fire and darkness, but how could there be darkness if the fire is literal? Hell is a bottomless pit and a dump. How can it be both?
In addition, Scripture calls God Himself a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29) and states that Christ and His angels will return surrounded "in flaming fire" (2 Thessalonians 1:7). But God is not a physical object as is fire (Now, sometimes, he manifests His presence through physical objects such as fire [Genesis 15:17], but we cannot conclude from this that He Himself is physical), and the flames surrounding the returning Christ are no more literal than is the sword coming out of His mouth (Revelation 1:16). Flames are used as symbols for divine judgment.
This would seem to be more in harmony with the revealed character of God in Scripture. But what about passages like Revelation 14:9, and 20:7? Don't they pose a problem for the symbolic view Moreland advocates?
According to Glenn Miller, they do not:
First Revelation 14.9f:
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”
And the second is Revelation 20.7ff:
And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
For some twenty years, these were the proof-texts I used to demonstrate to others that hell consisted of eternal, conscious, active torment. Over the last two years, I have abandoned using these verses in any such way. The problems with (a) understanding them at all(!); and (b) developing a doctrine of hell from these two verses are insurmountable in my opinion, and I simply gave up using them for this.
Let me mention some of the difficulties for taking these verses in the traditional way.
First, the Rev 14 passage:
1) The torment is said to be in the presence of Jesus (not in hell, but actually in the heavenly throne room).
2) The torment is a ‘city type’ of torment (e.g., Sodom, Edom), NOT an individual type. See especially Rev 19.3, where this described Babylon.
3) The “eternal” aspect of this is said by traditionalists to reside in the “eternal smoke” image, but this image was used of VERY finite annihilations/judgments in the OT—events which were not even REMOTELY ‘never-ending torment’
Compare specifically the OT origin of this image—Is 34 on the judgment on Edom:
”For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah and a great slaughter in Edom.
And the wild oxen will fall with them, the bull calves and the great bulls. Their land will be drenched with blood, and the dust will be soaked with fat.
For the LORD has a day of vengeance, a year of retribution, to uphold Zion's cause.
Edom's streams will be turned into pitch, her dust into burning sulfur; her land will become blazing pitch!
It will not be quenched night and day; its smoke will rise forever. From generation to generation it will lie desolate; no one will ever pass through it again.
The desert owl and screech owl will possess it; the great owl and the raven will nest there. God will stretch out over Edom the measuring line of chaos and the plumb line of desolation.
Her nobles will have nothing there to be called a kingdom, all her princes will vanish away.
Thorns will overrun her citadels, nettles and brambles her strongholds. She will become a haunt for jackals, a home for owls.
Desert creatures will meet with hyenas, and wild goats will bleat to each other; there the night creatures will also repose, and find for themselves places of rest.
The owl will nest there and lay eggs, she will hatch them, and care for her young under the shadow of her wings; there also the falcons will gather, each with its mate.
Look in the scroll of the LORD and read: None of these will be missing, not one will lack her mate. For it is his mouth that has given the order, and his Spirit will gather them together.
He allots their portions; his hand distributes them by measure. They will possess it forever and dwell there from generation to generation.”
Notice that the images are quite unlike our traditional views of hell. The entire land is said to be eternally on fire (including the water!), but a whole host of flora (thorns, nettles, brambles) and fauna (desert owl, screech owl, great owl, raven, jackals, hyenas, goats, falcons) find ‘rest’ there and grow families (presupposing a much wider range of wildlife and vegetation and water supply)…and the animals possess this place “forever” and “from generation to generation”. One of these images cannot be literal—either the fire one is figurative (probably of war, cf. Amos 2.1ff) or the animal one is figurative. And this matter is settled by the later prophecy of Jeremiah 49, building on the one in Isaiah. In this passage, the punishment on Edom is explicitly related to conquest and dispersion (by the Babylonians):
“Concerning Edom. Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Is there no longer any wisdom in Teman? Has good counsel been lost to the prudent? Has their wisdom decayed? 8 "Flee away, turn back, dwell in the depths, O inhabitants of Dedan, For I will bring the disaster of Esau upon him At the time I punish him. 9 "If grape gatherers came to you, Would they not leave gleanings? If thieves came by night, They would destroy only until they had enough. 10 "But I have stripped Esau bare, I have uncovered his hiding places So that he will not be able to conceal himself; His offspring has been destroyed along with his relatives And his neighbors, and he is no more. 11 "Leave your orphans behind, I will keep them alive; And let your widows trust in Me."
For thus says the LORD, "Behold, those who were not sentenced to drink the cup will certainly drink it, and are you the one who will be completely acquitted? You will not be acquitted, but you will certainly drink it. 13 "For I have sworn by Myself," declares the LORD, "that Bozrah will become an object of horror, a reproach, a ruin and a curse; and all its cities will become perpetual ruins."
I have heard a message from the LORD, And an envoy is sent among the nations, saying, "Gather yourselves together and come against her, And rise up for battle!" 15 "For behold, I have made you small among the nations, Despised among men. 16 "As for the terror of you, The arrogance of your heart has deceived you, O you who live in the clefts of the rock, Who occupy the height of the hill. Though you make your nest as high as an eagle's, I will bring you down from there," declares the LORD.
"And Edom will become an object of horror; everyone who passes by it will be horrified and will hiss at all its wounds. 18 "Like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah with its neighbors," says the LORD, "no one will live there, nor will a son of man reside in it. 19 "Behold, one will come up like a lion from the thickets of the Jordan against a perennially watered pasture; for in an instant I shall make him run away from it, and whoever is chosen I shall appoint over it. For who is like Me, and who will summon Me into court? And who then is the shepherd who can stand against Me?"
Therefore hear the plan of the LORD which He has planned against Edom, and His purposes which He has purposed against the inhabitants of Teman: surely they will drag them off, even the little ones of the flock; surely He will make their pasture desolate because of them. 21 The earth has quaked at the noise of their downfall. There is an outcry! The noise of it has been heard at the Red Sea. 22 Behold, He will mount up and swoop like an eagle, and spread out His wings against Bozrah; and the hearts of the mighty men of Edom in that day will be like the heart of a woman in labor.
Notice in the above passage that the items in bold related both to the ‘wasteland’ image of Isaiah AND to warfare, indicating the figurative nature of the ‘fire’ image. (Notice also, that there would be survivors in the orphans and widows, that God would care for.) Also, this judgment (esp. the “lion” image) is applied to Babylon in Jer 50.44, which referred to the military victory of the Medes/Persians over them.
And, just to make the point of discontinuity even MORE vivid: the passage in Jer 49.14 says that Edom’s cities will be “everlasting” ruins (heb. Olam). But ‘everlasting’ doesn’t mean a whole lot in this context, for Judah is said to be in “everlasting ruins” in Jeremiah 25.9 (as a result of the exile). The Psalmist in 74.3 prays to YHWH to look at His temple—an “everlasting ruin”—right before YHWH begins the rebuilding program, and in Is 58.12 the “everlasting ruins” of the nation are promised to be rebuilt by God. We know that "everlasting" is often used hyperbolically like this (indeed, George Foot Moore suggests that the 'eternal contempt' of Dan 12 might be hyperbolic, Judaism in the First Centuries of the Christian Era, vol II. P. 297).
Any thoughts?
So, suppose that hell:
1) Is a place of punishment,
2) hell's inhabitants will be there in all eternity, but,
3) the flames are not literal.
Could this be?
J.P. Moreland says this, about the subject:
By JP Moreland
Two New Testament passages provide the clearest definition of hell we have. Second Thessalonians 1:9 says, "And these [who do not know God or obey the gospel] will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" (NASB).
The other passage, Matthew 25:41 and 46 states: "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels' … And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
From these (and other) verses we see that the essence of hell is the end of a road away from God, love, and anything of real value. It is banishment from the very presence of God and from the type of life we were made to live.
Hell is also a place of shame, sorrow, regret and anguish. This intense pain is not actively produced by God; He is not a cosmic torturer. Undoubtedly, anguish and torment will exist in hell. And because we will have both body and soul in the resurrected state (see 1 Corinthians 15 for more details), the anguish experienced can be both mental and physical. But the pain suffered will be due to the shame and sorrow resulting from the punishment of final, ultimate, unending banishment from God, His kingdom, and the good life for which we were created in the first place.
Hell is called a place of fire and darkness, but how could there be darkness if the fire is literal?
Moreover, the flames in hell are most likely metaphorical. If metaphors for hell are taken literally, contradictions result. Hell is called a place of fire and darkness, but how could there be darkness if the fire is literal? Hell is a bottomless pit and a dump. How can it be both?
In addition, Scripture calls God Himself a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29) and states that Christ and His angels will return surrounded "in flaming fire" (2 Thessalonians 1:7). But God is not a physical object as is fire (Now, sometimes, he manifests His presence through physical objects such as fire [Genesis 15:17], but we cannot conclude from this that He Himself is physical), and the flames surrounding the returning Christ are no more literal than is the sword coming out of His mouth (Revelation 1:16). Flames are used as symbols for divine judgment.
This would seem to be more in harmony with the revealed character of God in Scripture. But what about passages like Revelation 14:9, and 20:7? Don't they pose a problem for the symbolic view Moreland advocates?
According to Glenn Miller, they do not:
First Revelation 14.9f:
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”
And the second is Revelation 20.7ff:
And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
For some twenty years, these were the proof-texts I used to demonstrate to others that hell consisted of eternal, conscious, active torment. Over the last two years, I have abandoned using these verses in any such way. The problems with (a) understanding them at all(!); and (b) developing a doctrine of hell from these two verses are insurmountable in my opinion, and I simply gave up using them for this.
Let me mention some of the difficulties for taking these verses in the traditional way.
First, the Rev 14 passage:
1) The torment is said to be in the presence of Jesus (not in hell, but actually in the heavenly throne room).
2) The torment is a ‘city type’ of torment (e.g., Sodom, Edom), NOT an individual type. See especially Rev 19.3, where this described Babylon.
3) The “eternal” aspect of this is said by traditionalists to reside in the “eternal smoke” image, but this image was used of VERY finite annihilations/judgments in the OT—events which were not even REMOTELY ‘never-ending torment’
Compare specifically the OT origin of this image—Is 34 on the judgment on Edom:
”For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah and a great slaughter in Edom.
And the wild oxen will fall with them, the bull calves and the great bulls. Their land will be drenched with blood, and the dust will be soaked with fat.
For the LORD has a day of vengeance, a year of retribution, to uphold Zion's cause.
Edom's streams will be turned into pitch, her dust into burning sulfur; her land will become blazing pitch!
It will not be quenched night and day; its smoke will rise forever. From generation to generation it will lie desolate; no one will ever pass through it again.
The desert owl and screech owl will possess it; the great owl and the raven will nest there. God will stretch out over Edom the measuring line of chaos and the plumb line of desolation.
Her nobles will have nothing there to be called a kingdom, all her princes will vanish away.
Thorns will overrun her citadels, nettles and brambles her strongholds. She will become a haunt for jackals, a home for owls.
Desert creatures will meet with hyenas, and wild goats will bleat to each other; there the night creatures will also repose, and find for themselves places of rest.
The owl will nest there and lay eggs, she will hatch them, and care for her young under the shadow of her wings; there also the falcons will gather, each with its mate.
Look in the scroll of the LORD and read: None of these will be missing, not one will lack her mate. For it is his mouth that has given the order, and his Spirit will gather them together.
He allots their portions; his hand distributes them by measure. They will possess it forever and dwell there from generation to generation.”
Notice that the images are quite unlike our traditional views of hell. The entire land is said to be eternally on fire (including the water!), but a whole host of flora (thorns, nettles, brambles) and fauna (desert owl, screech owl, great owl, raven, jackals, hyenas, goats, falcons) find ‘rest’ there and grow families (presupposing a much wider range of wildlife and vegetation and water supply)…and the animals possess this place “forever” and “from generation to generation”. One of these images cannot be literal—either the fire one is figurative (probably of war, cf. Amos 2.1ff) or the animal one is figurative. And this matter is settled by the later prophecy of Jeremiah 49, building on the one in Isaiah. In this passage, the punishment on Edom is explicitly related to conquest and dispersion (by the Babylonians):
“Concerning Edom. Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Is there no longer any wisdom in Teman? Has good counsel been lost to the prudent? Has their wisdom decayed? 8 "Flee away, turn back, dwell in the depths, O inhabitants of Dedan, For I will bring the disaster of Esau upon him At the time I punish him. 9 "If grape gatherers came to you, Would they not leave gleanings? If thieves came by night, They would destroy only until they had enough. 10 "But I have stripped Esau bare, I have uncovered his hiding places So that he will not be able to conceal himself; His offspring has been destroyed along with his relatives And his neighbors, and he is no more. 11 "Leave your orphans behind, I will keep them alive; And let your widows trust in Me."
For thus says the LORD, "Behold, those who were not sentenced to drink the cup will certainly drink it, and are you the one who will be completely acquitted? You will not be acquitted, but you will certainly drink it. 13 "For I have sworn by Myself," declares the LORD, "that Bozrah will become an object of horror, a reproach, a ruin and a curse; and all its cities will become perpetual ruins."
I have heard a message from the LORD, And an envoy is sent among the nations, saying, "Gather yourselves together and come against her, And rise up for battle!" 15 "For behold, I have made you small among the nations, Despised among men. 16 "As for the terror of you, The arrogance of your heart has deceived you, O you who live in the clefts of the rock, Who occupy the height of the hill. Though you make your nest as high as an eagle's, I will bring you down from there," declares the LORD.
"And Edom will become an object of horror; everyone who passes by it will be horrified and will hiss at all its wounds. 18 "Like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah with its neighbors," says the LORD, "no one will live there, nor will a son of man reside in it. 19 "Behold, one will come up like a lion from the thickets of the Jordan against a perennially watered pasture; for in an instant I shall make him run away from it, and whoever is chosen I shall appoint over it. For who is like Me, and who will summon Me into court? And who then is the shepherd who can stand against Me?"
Therefore hear the plan of the LORD which He has planned against Edom, and His purposes which He has purposed against the inhabitants of Teman: surely they will drag them off, even the little ones of the flock; surely He will make their pasture desolate because of them. 21 The earth has quaked at the noise of their downfall. There is an outcry! The noise of it has been heard at the Red Sea. 22 Behold, He will mount up and swoop like an eagle, and spread out His wings against Bozrah; and the hearts of the mighty men of Edom in that day will be like the heart of a woman in labor.
Notice in the above passage that the items in bold related both to the ‘wasteland’ image of Isaiah AND to warfare, indicating the figurative nature of the ‘fire’ image. (Notice also, that there would be survivors in the orphans and widows, that God would care for.) Also, this judgment (esp. the “lion” image) is applied to Babylon in Jer 50.44, which referred to the military victory of the Medes/Persians over them.
And, just to make the point of discontinuity even MORE vivid: the passage in Jer 49.14 says that Edom’s cities will be “everlasting” ruins (heb. Olam). But ‘everlasting’ doesn’t mean a whole lot in this context, for Judah is said to be in “everlasting ruins” in Jeremiah 25.9 (as a result of the exile). The Psalmist in 74.3 prays to YHWH to look at His temple—an “everlasting ruin”—right before YHWH begins the rebuilding program, and in Is 58.12 the “everlasting ruins” of the nation are promised to be rebuilt by God. We know that "everlasting" is often used hyperbolically like this (indeed, George Foot Moore suggests that the 'eternal contempt' of Dan 12 might be hyperbolic, Judaism in the First Centuries of the Christian Era, vol II. P. 297).
Any thoughts?