Hell, eternal punishment... and literal flames?

[Guest]

For many people, the concept of eternal punishment (burning, flaming etc.) has been difficult to reconcile with the revealed character and nature of God. For instance, many people suppose that they have the correct understanding of God's ways, character and nature, and their understanding is widely accepted by most orthodox denominations of Christianity. Yet when they read and hear of a dante's inferno type view of hell, they are confident that this is not correct, and that this is not something that would follow from God's character and nature. To them, this understanding just can't be correct.

So, suppose that hell:
1) Is a place of punishment,
2) hell's inhabitants will be there in all eternity, but,
3) the flames are not literal.

Could this be?

J.P. Moreland says this, about the subject:

By JP Moreland
Two New Testament passages provide the clearest definition of hell we have. Second Thessalonians 1:9 says, "And these [who do not know God or obey the gospel] will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" (NASB).

The other passage, Matthew 25:41 and 46 states: "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels' … And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

From these (and other) verses we see that the essence of hell is the end of a road away from God, love, and anything of real value. It is banishment from the very presence of God and from the type of life we were made to live.

Hell is also a place of shame, sorrow, regret and anguish. This intense pain is not actively produced by God; He is not a cosmic torturer. Undoubtedly, anguish and torment will exist in hell. And because we will have both body and soul in the resurrected state (see 1 Corinthians 15 for more details), the anguish experienced can be both mental and physical. But the pain suffered will be due to the shame and sorrow resulting from the punishment of final, ultimate, unending banishment from God, His kingdom, and the good life for which we were created in the first place.

Hell is called a place of fire and darkness, but how could there be darkness if the fire is literal?

Moreover, the flames in hell are most likely metaphorical. If metaphors for hell are taken literally, contradictions result. Hell is called a place of fire and darkness, but how could there be darkness if the fire is literal? Hell is a bottomless pit and a dump. How can it be both?

In addition, Scripture calls God Himself a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29) and states that Christ and His angels will return surrounded "in flaming fire" (2 Thessalonians 1:7). But God is not a physical object as is fire (Now, sometimes, he manifests His presence through physical objects such as fire [Genesis 15:17], but we cannot conclude from this that He Himself is physical), and the flames surrounding the returning Christ are no more literal than is the sword coming out of His mouth (Revelation 1:16). Flames are used as symbols for divine judgment.

This would seem to be more in harmony with the revealed character of God in Scripture. But what about passages like Revelation 14:9, and 20:7? Don't they pose a problem for the symbolic view Moreland advocates?

According to Glenn Miller, they do not:

First Revelation 14.9f:

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”


And the second is Revelation 20.7ff:

And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


For some twenty years, these were the proof-texts I used to demonstrate to others that hell consisted of eternal, conscious, active torment. Over the last two years, I have abandoned using these verses in any such way. The problems with (a) understanding them at all(!); and (b) developing a doctrine of hell from these two verses are insurmountable in my opinion, and I simply gave up using them for this.

Let me mention some of the difficulties for taking these verses in the traditional way.

First, the Rev 14 passage:

1) The torment is said to be in the presence of Jesus (not in hell, but actually in the heavenly throne room).

2) The torment is a ‘city type’ of torment (e.g., Sodom, Edom), NOT an individual type. See especially Rev 19.3, where this described Babylon.

3) The “eternal” aspect of this is said by traditionalists to reside in the “eternal smoke” image, but this image was used of VERY finite annihilations/judgments in the OT—events which were not even REMOTELY ‘never-ending torment’

Compare specifically the OT origin of this image—Is 34 on the judgment on Edom:

”For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah and a great slaughter in Edom.

And the wild oxen will fall with them, the bull calves and the great bulls. Their land will be drenched with blood, and the dust will be soaked with fat.

For the LORD has a day of vengeance, a year of retribution, to uphold Zion's cause.

Edom's streams will be turned into pitch, her dust into burning sulfur; her land will become blazing pitch!


It will not be quenched night and day; its smoke will rise forever. From generation to generation it will lie desolate; no one will ever pass through it again.

The desert owl and screech owl will possess it; the great owl and the raven will nest there. God will stretch out over Edom the measuring line of chaos and the plumb line of desolation.

Her nobles will have nothing there to be called a kingdom, all her princes will vanish away.

Thorns will overrun her citadels, nettles and brambles her strongholds. She will become a haunt for jackals, a home for owls.

Desert creatures will meet with hyenas, and wild goats will bleat to each other; there the night creatures will also repose, and find for themselves places of rest.

The owl will nest there and lay eggs, she will hatch them, and care for her young under the shadow of her wings; there also the falcons will gather, each with its mate.

Look in the scroll of the LORD and read: None of these will be missing, not one will lack her mate. For it is his mouth that has given the order, and his Spirit will gather them together.

He allots their portions; his hand distributes them by measure. They will possess it forever and dwell there from generation to generation.”

Notice that the images are quite unlike our traditional views of hell. The entire land is said to be eternally on fire (including the water!), but a whole host of flora (thorns, nettles, brambles) and fauna (desert owl, screech owl, great owl, raven, jackals, hyenas, goats, falcons) find ‘rest’ there and grow families (presupposing a much wider range of wildlife and vegetation and water supply)…and the animals possess this place “forever” and “from generation to generation”. One of these images cannot be literal—either the fire one is figurative (probably of war, cf. Amos 2.1ff) or the animal one is figurative. And this matter is settled by the later prophecy of Jeremiah 49, building on the one in Isaiah. In this passage, the punishment on Edom is explicitly related to conquest and dispersion (by the Babylonians):

“Concerning Edom. Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Is there no longer any wisdom in Teman? Has good counsel been lost to the prudent? Has their wisdom decayed? 8 "Flee away, turn back, dwell in the depths, O inhabitants of Dedan, For I will bring the disaster of Esau upon him At the time I punish him. 9 "If grape gatherers came to you, Would they not leave gleanings? If thieves came by night, They would destroy only until they had enough. 10 "But I have stripped Esau bare, I have uncovered his hiding places So that he will not be able to conceal himself; His offspring has been destroyed along with his relatives And his neighbors, and he is no more. 11 "Leave your orphans behind, I will keep them alive; And let your widows trust in Me."

For thus says the LORD, "Behold, those who were not sentenced to drink the cup will certainly drink it, and are you the one who will be completely acquitted? You will not be acquitted, but you will certainly drink it. 13 "For I have sworn by Myself," declares the LORD, "that Bozrah will become an object of horror, a reproach, a ruin and a curse; and all its cities will become perpetual ruins."

I have heard a message from the LORD, And an envoy is sent among the nations, saying, "Gather yourselves together and come against her, And rise up for battle!" 15 "For behold, I have made you small among the nations, Despised among men. 16 "As for the terror of you, The arrogance of your heart has deceived you, O you who live in the clefts of the rock, Who occupy the height of the hill. Though you make your nest as high as an eagle's, I will bring you down from there," declares the LORD.

"And Edom will become an object of horror; everyone who passes by it will be horrified and will hiss at all its wounds. 18 "Like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah with its neighbors," says the LORD, "no one will live there, nor will a son of man reside in it. 19 "Behold, one will come up like a lion from the thickets of the Jordan against a perennially watered pasture; for in an instant I shall make him run away from it, and whoever is chosen I shall appoint over it. For who is like Me, and who will summon Me into court? And who then is the shepherd who can stand against Me?"

Therefore hear the plan of the LORD which He has planned against Edom, and His purposes which He has purposed against the inhabitants of Teman: surely they will drag them off, even the little ones of the flock; surely He will make their pasture desolate because of them. 21 The earth has quaked at the noise of their downfall. There is an outcry! The noise of it has been heard at the Red Sea. 22 Behold, He will mount up and swoop like an eagle, and spread out His wings against Bozrah; and the hearts of the mighty men of Edom in that day will be like the heart of a woman in labor.

Notice in the above passage that the items in bold related both to the ‘wasteland’ image of Isaiah AND to warfare, indicating the figurative nature of the ‘fire’ image. (Notice also, that there would be survivors in the orphans and widows, that God would care for.) Also, this judgment (esp. the “lion” image) is applied to Babylon in Jer 50.44, which referred to the military victory of the Medes/Persians over them.

And, just to make the point of discontinuity even MORE vivid: the passage in Jer 49.14 says that Edom’s cities will be “everlasting” ruins (heb. Olam). But ‘everlasting’ doesn’t mean a whole lot in this context, for Judah is said to be in “everlasting ruins” in Jeremiah 25.9 (as a result of the exile). The Psalmist in 74.3 prays to YHWH to look at His temple—an “everlasting ruin”—right before YHWH begins the rebuilding program, and in Is 58.12 the “everlasting ruins” of the nation are promised to be rebuilt by God. We know that "everlasting" is often used hyperbolically like this (indeed, George Foot Moore suggests that the 'eternal contempt' of Dan 12 might be hyperbolic, Judaism in the First Centuries of the Christian Era, vol II. P. 297).

Any thoughts?

[Guest]

We had a similar thread called "alternative views of hell" and how one views hell comes down to a few words and how one views God. The greek words "aion", aionios, krisis, krinos, pur and sheol,gehenna,hades and tartarus.
And God who tells us to "love our enemies and neighbors" shall torment unbelievers eternally? Well if that makes sense to the reader then he is free to believe it. Jesus is called "the savior of the world" yet will give up an overwhelming majority to either damnation or destruction? If the reader thinks that's logical again he is free to believe it. God consistently measures justice in the bible in terms of equality. "Judge not for By THE SAME MEASURE YOU JUDGE so you will be judged" which is like "an eye for an eye" or "do unto others" meaning equal payment for the transgression and the punishment.
So a 16 year old kid who had atheist parents and dies in an accident and what happens?
IMHO most people who will ever be saved will have it happen through the Lake of Fire. I think that's it's purpose as i think Rev 22.17 indicates.

[Guest]

Here are a few of my favorite arguments against the traditional view of Hell.

1. What is the point of resurrecting the unjust if they are destroyed again?...or worse, tortured forever. Would it not make more sense to let death have it's final say?
2. Christ said, "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matt 5:44). Is God double-minded? If Christ says to do good to those who hate you, how can God turn around and punish them forever?
3. Speaking of the birth of Christ, it is written, "And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people" (Luke 2:10). How can this news be "great joy" to "all people" if the vast majority of them will languish in Hell forever?
4. Is God incapable of saving all of mankind?....or is he unwilling? According to the traditional view one of these must be true. Yet the scripture says that God is "not willing that any should perish" (2 Pet 3:9).
5. How can someone enjoy the "peace of God, that passes all understanding" (Phil 4:7) if you believe that some of your loved ones (or anyone) will go to Hell?
6. It is written, "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost" (Luke 19:10). According to the traditional view, Christ was only marginally successful in his stated purpose.

Todd

[Guest]

The concept of "eternal punishment" is contrary to the character of God, whether the flames of Gehenna are "literal" or not.

What purpose could eternal punishment have other than pure revenge?
Revenge is a human charateristic, not a divine one. Jesus who is the "exact expression of the essence" of God, taught us not to seek vengeance. Yet millions believe that God will carry out eternalvengeance. You and I would not do that to our worst enemy. Isn't God at least more righteous and just than we?

The "Eternal punishment" concept was first popularized in the catholic church of the fifth century by Augustine. Somehow, because of the Latin Vulgate, the Greek word "aionios" came to be translated as "eternal". This Greek word is actually the adjectival form of the Greek noun "aion" which means "age."

Some of you will no doubt remind me of the verse "Vengeance is mine, says the Lord". That word would better be translated as "judgment".

[Guest]

1. What is the point of resurrecting the unjust if they are destroyed again?...or worse, tortured forever. Would it not make more sense to let death have it's final say?

Your first statement is a good challenge against annihilation, your second is challenging to the dantea's inferno view on hell. Indeed, with these two options, your last question would make sense and would seem to be a better option instead of the first two. The only problem I can think of with your last suggested option, is that the bible says that of those who face judgment, that each one will be judged according to their works. This is just. How can hitler who harmed many and brought suffering in various ways in countless people, be punished no more and no less than a good buddhist monk, who never hurt anyone? Just let death have it's final say? That's unjust.

2. Christ said, "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matt 5:44). Is God double-minded? If Christ says to do good to those who hate you, how can God turn around and punish them forever?

In my opinion, to think like this, you commit a category error. The bible repeatedly says things like Romans 12:17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. This shows that God is in a higher/other category than us, the created. He is the Creator, and we are the creature. He is the Righteous Judge and Lawgiver, and we are not. When we break His laws, it is His rightful place to punish, just like it is the rightful place of a parent to punish a child that disobeys the parents rules. Though I don't lean towards a literal fiery flame punishment, I still lean towards an eternal punishment.

5. How can someone enjoy the "peace of God, that passes all understanding" (Phil 4:7) if you believe that some of your loved ones (or anyone) will go to Hell?

Well this may be a problematic question for the dantaes inferno view, but it wouldn't be near as bad if Hell is an eternal incarceration for the wicked. I can enjoy the peace of God that passes all understanding, and yet a close friend is in prison and will be for some time. John writes that in heaven "we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 John 3:2), so perhaps we will be fully satisfied that God is perfectly just and merciful, and that He gave every individual the opportunity to accept or reject Him. However He works it out, God promises that there will not be sorrow or crying in heaven. Our focus in heaven won’t be on our loss, but on our gain.


As for the ones I didn't touch on, I can't say that I can speak much of them. What do you think of what I did say father of five? I do understand where you are coming from as far as the inferno view of hell. It just doesn't seem appropriate if it is for all eternity.

[Guest]

The "Eternal punishment" concept was first popularized in the catholic church of the fifth century by Augustine. Somehow, because of the Latin Vulgate, the Greek word "aionios" came to be translated as "eternal". This Greek word is actually the adjectival form of the Greek noun "aion" which means "age."

Matt. 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Whatever the original wording is for both the bolded words, they are the same. So if you choose to translate it into the english as age abiding, then you have the following:

Matt. 25:46 And these shall go away into age-abiding punishment: but the righteous into life age-abiding.

So if this is true, then you have a serious problem on your hands, because if you can at some point escape the age abiding punishment in the hereafter, then you also could at some point escape the age-abiding life as well.

[Guest]

What purpose could eternal punishment have other than pure revenge?

Rom. 11:34 - "For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has become His counselor?"

Would a loving God force people to spend eternity with Him?

[Guest]

1. What is the point of resurrecting the unjust if they are destroyed again?...or worse, tortured forever. Would it not make more sense to let death have it's final say?

Your first statement is a good challenge against annihilation, your second is challenging to the dantea's inferno view on hell. Indeed, with these two options, your last question would make sense and would seem to be a better option instead of the first two. The only problem I can think of with your last suggested option, is that the bible says that of those who face judgment, that each one will be judged according to their works. This is just. How can hitler who harmed many and brought suffering in various ways in countless people, be punished no more and no less than a good buddhist monk, who never hurt anyone? Just let death have it's final say? That's unjust.

2. Christ said, "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matt 5:44). Is God double-minded? If Christ says to do good to those who hate you, how can God turn around and punish them forever?

In my opinion, to think like this, you commit a category error. The bible repeatedly says things like Romans 12:17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. This shows that God is in a higher/other category than us, the created. He is the Creator, and we are the creature. He is the Righteous Judge and Lawgiver, and we are not. When we break His laws, it is His rightful place to punish, just like it is the rightful place of a parent to punish a child that disobeys the parents rules. Though I don't lean towards a literal fiery flame punishment, I still lean towards an eternal punishment.

5. How can someone enjoy the "peace of God, that passes all understanding" (Phil 4:7) if you believe that some of your loved ones (or anyone) will go to Hell?

Well this may be a problematic question for the dantaes inferno view, but it wouldn't be near as bad if Hell is an eternal incarceration for the wicked. I can enjoy the peace of God that passes all understanding, and yet a close friend is in prison and will be for some time. John writes that in heaven "we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 John 3:2), so perhaps we will be fully satisfied that God is perfectly just and merciful, and that He gave every individual the opportunity to accept or reject Him. However He works it out, God promises that there will not be sorrow or crying in heaven. Our focus in heaven won’t be on our loss, but on our gain.


As for the ones I didn't touch on, I can't say that I can speak much of them. What do you think of what I did say father of five? I do understand where you are coming from as far as the inferno view of hell. It just doesn't seem appropriate if it is for all eternity.

Soaring Eagle,

I believe that God does punish the sinner, but all his punishments happen during our lifetime. All the teaching and descriptions of Hell are reffering to the execution of God's wrath on those who are spiritually dead but physically alive. Once someone dies (physically) there is no more punishment but a promise of a future resurrection of both the just and the unjust - not to face judgement, but to glorification. Rather than rehash it all again I will refer you to a recent thread.

http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.php?t=1111

Todd

[Guest]

"This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach , because we trust in the living God, who is the SAVIOR OF ALL MEN , SPECIALLY of those that believe." 1 Tim 4.9-10
This is one of numerous verses that suggest all we ultimately be saved but it's assumed that ALL really s/b qualified and mean "potentially all" or "all who respond in this life" or "all who are called." Taken at face value these referenced verses don't actually have qualifications it's that their read with a presupposition.
In this verse the greek word "malista" meaning "SPECIALLY" and means "in the greatest degree or particularly" (Strong's greek dictionary pg 155). In it's other uses in the NT the greek word MALISTA is used to mean INCLUDING some others.
"For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers SPECIALLY they of the circumcision" Titus 1.10
-"Not now as a servant but above a servant , a brother beloved SPECIALLY to me, but how much more unto thee , both in the flesh, and in the Lord" Phil 16

In 1 Tim 4.9-10 Paul differentiates in that believers are saved in a special way , before the rest of humanity, and they are given the gift of "age abiding" life reigning with Christ in the kingdom of God , AGES before the rest of humanity are saved.
When the unbelievers are thrown into the Lake of Fire surprisingly nothing is actually said about them until Rev 22.17 when they are invited by the Spirit and the Bride to partake in the water of life.
Every man is saved through fire some in this life (1 Cor 3.13-15) the vast majority through the lake of fire where they will be refined. That's what the greek word for fire means (PUR) or purify means as in "fire and brimstone" where brimstone is sulfer a cleansing agent.
Anyway this is how i see it.

[Guest]

Todd wrote:

3. Speaking of the birth of Christ, it is written, "And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people" (Luke 2:10). How can this news be "great joy" to "all people" if the vast majority of them will languish in Hell forever?

Because the good news IS for all people. ALL who believe and become Christ's disciples will benefit.

In my opinion, if "hell" is merely the punishment sinners receive on earth, and that's it, then the whole Gospel is meaningless and the whole idea of Christianity is a farce. Why not eat, drink and be merry? i might be wrong but i dont think Bill Gates is doing a lot of suffering, nor are likely 90% of the "unsaved" out there. they just live ther normal lives, have their normal problems, sin their normal sins, etc. but so do Christians. except that Chrisitans have an eternal hope.

what in the world am i missing here?

TK