My Case for eternal Hell

[steve7150]

steve7150 wrote:
Why is it hard to say who this verse is talking about?

If it is easy to say who is invited to drink this water of life, then answer me this: who is Jesus talking about when he says that narrow is the path to life and few who find it? Are you going to tell me that every last person is invited to drink the water of life? If all do not find life, like Jesus says, then it is hard to know exactly who this passage in Rev is talking about. Some might say that there people are those living (that are not Christians) when Jesus returns.




Jesus already returned in Rev 20 , and everyone was judged and unbelievers were already thrown into the LOF. This verse at Rev 22.17 is 5 verses from the end of the bible, probably not by coincidence.
When Jesus spoke of the narrow gate, how many people heard him? 99% of the world's population was outside of Israel and had no knowledge of his statements literally for hundreds of years. Jesus words did not even begin to be diseminated to the masses until after the invention of the printing press. Therefore 95% of mankind is simply doomed to eternal hell according to you. Therefore Satan wins over God and over Jesus although Jesus said "all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."
Despite Jesus having all authority, despite God's will being that none should perish, despite God being outside of time, despite Jesus atonement being outside of time, despite Jesus himself presiding over the LOF and not Satan, despite Satan being simply a created being, despite everything i mentioned according to you, Satan is the winner. The bible turns out to be about Satan's will being done and not God's.

[Ambassador791]

When Jesus spoke of the narrow gate, how many people heard him? 99% of the world's population was outside of Israel and had no knowledge of his statements literally for hundreds of years. Jesus words did not even begin to be diseminated to the masses until after the invention of the printing press...

The number of people that had heard Jesus´ words were very few when he had spoke them, I agree. But does this have anything to do with the truth or meaning behind them? In places that no one has heard his words, do they have less meaning, while in the U.S (for example) they are full of meaning? You seem to say that because many had not heard Jesus´words when he spoke them, this some how changes their over all meaning (no matter how clear they are). So are you saying that under the conditions you point out, maybe the path is not so narrow, but wide and all find life instead of few.Strange argument, sounds relitivistic.

....

Therefore 95% of mankind is simply doomed to eternal hell according to you.

Where have I said this? I have not told you what I have believe in regards to those who have not herd about Jesus. We can talk about how God judges such people later.Romans may tell us a little about it. Lets stick to the facts for now.


Lets look at Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.

You have been saying that these verses are talking about what is happening in the new heavens and the new earth and that this is an invitation for thoses in hell to share in the water of life, because the bride is pesent, so who else is this invite for.

In the new heavens and earth, is the angle of the Lord testifying to the churches like verse 16 says? Will there be the chance for people to take from the words of this book there too as we read in verse 18?

No.

Yes, towards the end of this book Jesus talks about the new heavens and earth. But here he has finished giving the vision. Now he gives closing comments. Thats why he says "16I Jesus have sent my angel to testify unto you THESE THINGS in the churches¨´

What things? The things in the vision.

He is talking about the spreading of this message given through the vision. These verses are not talking about the new heavens and earth. They are not talking about the end or even part of the vision Jesus gave to John. This is what he (Jesus through the spirit) and the bride (the church) are going to do with the vision, thats what vs 17 tells us:

17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The bride, (church) after receiving the message from the angle will invite all that thirst to know Jesus (the water of life).

Jesus did this on earth. He invited us to drink the living water.

If that werent enough, look at almost the same invite in Rev 21:

6And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 BUT the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death

Notice that hear we clearly see that after the invite to drink of the water comes the judment, not the other way around.The second death is given as the alternitive to the living water.

As the Church, Jesus´bride, we invite all to drink the living water.

That answers your verse.

But, I think it would be hard to answer my question without relitivising Jesus´words as you seem to have done above.

Here is the question again:

If all find life in the end in your view...what did Jesus mean when he said: Narrow is the path to life and few are those that find it?

[steve7150]

If all find life in the end in your view...what did Jesus mean when he said: Narrow is the path to life and few are those that find it?




I did'nt say that all will find life, i said that physical death is nothing to God as he created time and Jesus atonement is outside of time.
IMO the narrow path warning is that few in this life will qualify for eternal life now and will perish and will find themselves on the broad path into the lake of fire. The difference between our views is how we view the LOF.
As far as Romans 1 goes, that is not speaking of salvation faith, it is simply acknowleging the existence of God which is not equivalent to making Jesus your Lord.
So i think it is clear that for the first 1,500 years after Jesus death and resurrection very very very few people living in this life had any real understanding of Jesus until bibles were mass produced by the printing press.
Therefore if your view is correct , Satan's will is done not God's and Jesus sacrifice failed to save 99% of the world despite the fact he is called the Savior of the World.

[Todd]

Matt 7:13-14
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

I still maintain that the term "life" as it is used here is not referring to the after-life. It refers to the abundant life that is available to those who follow Christ in faith. The term "destruction" also does not refer to the after-life; rather, it refers to the natural consequences one suffers as a result of sin. Just as the prodigal son was "dead" and "lost" when his life was in ruins, so also is anyone who strays into self-indulgence to the neglect of helping others.

In my opinion, much of the New Testament is misunderstood to refer to the after-life when in-fact it refers to this life. There is hope in Christ in this life, and there is hope in the resurrection. Christ's victory is two-fold, bringing abundant life to those who follow him (victory in this life), and resurrection to both the just and the unjust (victory from death). If one reads the New Testament with these thoughts in mind, it is easier to see that Christ's victory over sin and death is complete and all of mankind is reconciled to Him; and in the end, God is all in all.

2 Cor 5:19
that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Todd

[Ambassador791]

I did'nt say that all will find life, i said that physical death is nothing to God as he created time and Jesus atonement is outside of time.

I think the burden of proof for his sacrifice being outside of time can not be solved by simply showing that it was determined to happen out side of time. His sacrifice was actualized in time, thats how we even know that it happened. Either way, he said that those not reconciled in time would not be forgiven, they will pay all thir debt. There is no way around this clear declaration of Jesus himself. It looks like the clear statments of Jesus are working against your view, and simply showing the scriptures that talk about Gods love do not cancel out the scriptures I have shown over the last few pages.

IMO the narrow path warning is that few in this life will qualify for eternal life now and will perish and will find themselves on the broad path into the lake of fire

It looks like you are saying that few find the life that is in Jesus while they are on this earth.

Even if you want to look at it this way, that life is eternal life over all.That life, found here on earth, is the narrow path that we must walk in order to find eternal life. Jesus said that few walk that path and find that life. If all find it in the end, Jesus´ statment was simply not true. The life found here in Jesus and eternal life are one in the same.

As far as Romans 1 goes, that is not speaking of salvation faith, it is simply acknowleging the existence of God which is not equivalent to making Jesus your Lord.So i think it is clear that for the first 1,500 years after Jesus death and resurrection very very very few people living in this life had any real understanding of Jesus until bibles were mass produced by the printing press.
Therefore if your view is correct , Satan's will is done not God's and Jesus sacrifice failed to save 99% of the world despite the fact he is called the Savior of the World.

There people in the bible that were saved (before Jesus came) because they responded to the light they were given. Job was not even an Israelite, and he knew God. There are modern day examples of people that had the truth of the Son revealed to them, before they actually heard the name Jesus. I am not going to say that everyone was lost before and after Jesus.

Therefore if your view is correct , Satan's will is done not God's and Jesus sacrifice failed to save 99% of the world despite the fact he is called the Savior of the World.

This is a horrible arguement because it is clearly a false dichotomy, as if the only two options that exist are that if all go to heaven, God´s will is done and that if any number stay in hell, Satans will is done. I´m not sure that Satan sends anyone to hell. He doesnt in my view, so this is a straw man. And if my view is true, then anyone that would be sent to hell for any length of time would be sent there because God willed it in responce to their rebelion.In my view, It is not the case that someone other than God moves in and sends people to hell against Gods will. No! This is God making judgments ACCORDING to his will in response to people who want take Gods place.


I know that some say that Jesus died to save all, and I believe this. Well, just as all are responcible for their own sin and their own participation in the sin nature (not the sin of their father) they are responcible for their own participation in the life that is found in Jesus.

It is not Gods perfect will to reject anyone. But Jesus says that he will reject those that reject him. That rejection would be his passive will.

It is not the case that Satan is forcing Jesus to do his will to make him reject the sinner.

[Homer]

The interminable argument by the Universalists is strange indeed, given that there appears to be nothing in the scriptures that informs us of post-death salvation. Nothing about how they might be saved, when they might be saved, nor on what basis they might be saved. The argument seems to be all philosophical based on a view of what God must be like (us).

[steve7150]

The interminable argument by the Universalists is strange indeed, given that there appears to be nothing in the scriptures that informs us of post-death salvation. Nothing about how they might be saved, when they might be saved, nor on what basis they might be saved. The argument seems to be all philosophical based on a view of what God must be like (us).




What is strange to you is logical to me as there is not a verse preventing it and furthermore it would make the playing field potentially equal for the great majority of mankind who have little understanding of the gospel.
All i see at death is that we are judged and if you believe that only means punishment, that's fine but i see it as much more comprehensive.
As far as the details go, why do we need to know the details? I trust God as being just and merciful , those are the details i need.

[steve7150]

steve7150 wrote:
Therefore if your view is correct , Satan's will is done not God's and Jesus sacrifice failed to save 99% of the world despite the fact he is called the Savior of the World.

This is a horrible arguement because it is clearly a false dichotomy, as if the only two options that exist are that if all go to heaven, God´s will is done and that if any number stay in hell, Satans will is done. I´m not sure that Satan sends anyone to hell. He doesnt in my view, so this is a straw man. And if my view is true, then anyone that would be sent to hell for any length of time would be sent there because God willed it in responce to their rebelion.In my view, It is not the case that someone other than God moves in and sends people to hell against Gods will. No! This is God making judgments ACCORDING to his will in response to people who want take Gods place.


I know that some say that Jesus died to save all, and I believe this. Well, just as all are responcible for their own sin and their own participation in the sin nature (not the sin of their father) they are responcible for their own participation in the life that is found in Jesus.

It is not Gods perfect will to reject anyone. But Jesus says that he will reject those that reject him. That rejection would be his passive will.






Why is it a horrible argument when it is an accurate assessment of the results of the eternal torment view. Around 95% or more of humanity ends up in hell forever which is the job description given to Satan which is to separate us from God.
Jesus assigned to be Savior of the World saves about 5% and Satan designated as "the Adversary" separates 95% of humanity from God. It's not the argument that's horrible, it's the end result of the eternal torment view.
Your view is based on the perception that man is vile and wicked and deserves hell so that if any are saved it is only by the mercy of God. I think the whole of the bible teaches that man has good and evil in him yet can not qualify for the righteousness of God therefore Christ came to give us his total righteousness as a gift.
If this gift is much more clearly presented to a few people during this life but most people have little comprehension about this gift then the question is, what would a just God do with these people if they had a clear understanding.
BTW i know a ton of unbelievers and it does'nt appear to me that they make themselves their own god as you suggested but more that they need more clear evidence of Jesus Christ. Most are not against him, they just don't get it, they lack an understanding of God's holiness, not because they are wicked but i think because the devil blinds the minds of unbelievers.

[Ambassador791]

Why is it a horrible argument when it is an accurate assessment of the results of the eternal torment view. Around 95% or more of humanity ends up in hell forever which is the job description given to Satan which is to separate us from God.
Jesus assigned to be Savior of the World saves about 5% and Satan designated as "the Adversary" separates 95% of humanity from God. It's not the argument that's horrible, it's the end result of the eternal torment view .

Whatever Satan’s work is, he does not send anyone to hell. Hell is the punishment for a life lived away from God. Sure, Satan has a roll in separating people from God. But there is nothing is scripture to suggest that Satan created hell or sends anyone there, that’s God’s roll. You keep giving me percentages in regards to how many people have been saved. They may be very low numbers, but that does support my view of the path being narrow thus supporting my view over yours. You cannot say that my view does not square with the plain, straight forward reading of the scripture, it may not square with your philosophy of God.

Jesus also said in Luke that we must enter through the narrow door, he then says that that door would later be closed and those who had not entered would not be allowed to. This translates to the end of reconciliation on a plain reading. Not only that, but Jesus encourages reconciliation before the Judgment (Mat 5/25,26). How do I know that there will be no reconciliation after the judgment? Jesus said so. Reconciliation involves forgiveness. If the sinner pays for ALL of his sin(Mat 5/25,26), what has he been forgiven of? Nothing at all. That proves it right there. No forgiveness, no reconciliation after the judgment, I need no more scriptural support. All I need to prove my view scripturally is Jesus saying that the sinner pays all, and he does so in more than one place. You have given your philosophy of the character of God. That is not enough for me to contradict the plain scriptures on the subject.

BTW i know a ton of unbelievers and it doesn’t appear to me that they make themselves their own god as you suggested but more that they need more clear evidence of Jesus Christ.

You say that the people you know do not believe because they simply have not seen enough evidence. Is the problem the lack of evidence? Yes, Satan has blinded these people, but it all starts with their willingness to respond to the light they have been given (God testifies about himself through the creation, the heavens). If they do not respond to Gods general revelation, Satan moves in to blind their eyes. Because of general revelation, God is not far from all, and his spirit is moving. If you are not a Calvinist, you may accept and get this next point: if there is not enough evidence, how did we believe? The Calvinist says that God willed it and singled us out to make us believe. I say that we responded to the light God gave us so that we could properly interpreted the evidence. So man can find God if he wishes, it is not determined, everyone gets a chance.

The alternative to this view is what it sounds like your saying and the first part sounds too Calvinistic for me to believe: God is far from most of the world, man has been blinded from birth so that he cannot see the evidence, so it has been determined that he stumble and could have never done anything else. YOUR solution to this problem is that God has levelled the playing field in the afterlife, but as I write below, why would God have to do that if he did it here by assuring that all will know him today, if only they wished to do so.
I would argue, that if this is true (God not being far from man), and man knows not God because he does not want him, how many time does God have to lay himself open to be rejected? If man does not want God now, neither will he TRULY want him later (I won’t use the lame argument at this point: how many times does God have to lose by being rejected, when does God get to win...thus Satan is the winner). So God in good conscience can shutout such a man into his own desired hell, void of God, void of all things good.

Your view is based on the perception that man is vile and wicked and deserves hell so that if any are saved it is only by the mercy of God. I think the whole of the bible teaches that man has good and evil in him...

Anyone that reads the bible can see that the bible is full of scriptures that charge man with being evil. In comparison, there are very, very few that speak of mans goodness.
But I agree, man has some good in him, and no doubt this is because he was made in God’s image. The fact that man has a good side and shows it from time to time does not help him, but makes his condemnation even more deserved.
How so?

Imagine a man on trial for breaking various laws, and is calming insanity. His lawyer claims that because he is insane, he does not have the ability to do good. Later the judge sees him helping at a soup kitchen. It would have been better for that man to have really not known to do good, because now the judge can see that the man knew to do good, but choose not to. Seeing that the man knew to do good, yet broke the law only shows his true wickedness. We would not drag a wild wolf before the Judge because he was not created to be a moral being, but what if we found out that he knew to do good, but rebelled against that? A creature that is created to be good and departs from that at any moment is directly rebelling against what he was created to be, thus rebelling against his creator. Are you saying that this is anything but evil? Psalm 36: 1 An oracle is within my heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked: [aThere is no fear of God before his eyes. 2 For in his own eyes he flatters himself too much to detect or hate his sin.”

This truth is foundational, if you don´t get this, and you view of the character of God is based on your misunderstanding of Gods view of the sinner, you need to reexamine the scripture so that you may make a right judgment based on the scripture, not a mal informed philosophy.

If we are trying to reduce the gravity of the horridness of mans rebellion, we have lost touch with the truth on this subject. Man is not as savage as a wolf , so a wolf was a bad example? He is worse because he knows better and the small sins are just symptoms of the hearts rebellion. If God had not cut mans’ years short, the stealing of pencils would grow (with the help of increased intelligence over time) into the construction of towers of Babel and more advanced sin to blot God out of his own creation.

You see, this kind of thought is what is causing you to make false inferences about a so called post death salvation. You think that God is far from all, and that finding him depends on our human means (your example, the printing press being invented too late for God to properly move). But Paul himself said in Acts 17 that God determined the times and places for each nation, so they might reach out and find Him. You are only seeing a mankind that does some good works and appears to be looking for God. So you conclude that despite their best efforts they just can’t find him. That is not biblical. The bible says there is more going on here, man does not want God, despite all appearances because God is not far, in fact he is within arm’s reach of all nations(Jesus said that if you seek, you will find Mat 7/7-). There are people that live their whole lives in the U.S with the bible all around them and never know God, while a man opens his heart in the dark jungle somewhere and begins to receive visions of the God-man that died for him. What does that tell us? That God is working behind everything regardless of the printing press, more men have Gods word now and may reject God even more directly.

Apart from man´s few good works proving that he is truly twisted (him judging others according to his own make-shift moral law only adds insult to injury). He truly does testify with his life that he wants God done away with. His life away from God in spite of the fact that God set every, every, every little thing up (the nations themselves) so that man would know him, only proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the man that dies without God, truly did not want him. The alternative is you view: most men search for God, but God was away those days, so God only owes it to them to give them a real chance in the next life because he made it too hard in this one.

This is the same reason non-Christians have the same objections you do. They are not looking at the Christian faith from a holistic point of view. They do not realize that God is bigger than any printing press and that if any man truly wants him, he will find him

[steve7150]

Jesus also said in Luke that we must enter through the narrow door, he then says that that door would later be closed and those who had not entered would not be allowed to. This translates to the end of reconciliation on a plain reading.




You're right about the interpretation based on plain reading but Jesus usually did'nt speak plainly in fact his disciples wondered when he would speak plainly. BTW if you want to stick to plain reading then be consistent and accept the verses in Rev 22.17 as offering salvation to those in the lake of fire, because that is the plain reading of it without any pre-suppositions. I think this narrow gate applies to reconciliation in this life plainly speaking and without entering it you are subject to judgment for your sins. However again it boils down to what is God's purpose with us? Your view is that the overwhelming majority are in hell forever and mine is that Christ's mission as the Savior of the world is to bring to restoration as many as possible , maybe most, maybe all, i really don't know but as i said physical death is absolutely nothing to God, it is a non-event to him.
As far as my philosophy about God's charactor , it's based on Jesus charactor which is compassionate,merciful and loving and forgiving and harsh to the religious leaders who knew the Word of God but made it to no effect. I know what you're thinking, which is that his mercy was only for his first coming but afterwards , watch out when he oversees the LOF he will torment everyone there forever for rejecting him. That might have been true except for the fact he is the same yesterday,today and forever therefore the charactor you saw during his ministry is the same when he oversees the LOF(Rev 14).
Again i say Jesus mission was specifically to be the Savior of the world and again i repeat, physical death is nothing to God, God's will is that none should perish and in Isaiah, God says he will accomplish his purposes and his will, even if it takes until the 5th verse from the end of the bible (Rev 22.17).