Conditionalists: How did you come to your belief?

[Michelle]

Thanks, Rick, for your insights about this passage. I'd love to discuss it further, but I'm really pressed for time, as well as the fact that I think I might veer far away from the original purpose for this thread. Have a great day!

Michelle

[jriccitelli]

If I assembled proof texts that confirm eternal life is conditional, they would start in Genesis, ‘continue’ thru the Prophets, and be affirmed by Jesus and the NT. Thus texts such as; “in the day that you sin you will die” / “God will provide a lamb for the burnt offering” / “Then the LORD spoke to Moses, "Go down, warn the people, so that they do not break through to the LORD to gaze, and many of them perish” / "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine, the soul who sins will die” and every other warning of death means just what it says, life now, and future, is conditional.

My understanding of Preterism is that God fulfills His punishments just as he did in the past, and He will do so again. God repeats the same punishments for sin over and over, the punishments do not change. In fact the language does not change, God refers to the punishment of the past to describe the punishments of the future. The punishment in Genesis is the same as in Exodus, Joshua, Job, Psalms, Hosea, Joel, Sodom, Egypt, Babylon, Jerusalem, the wine press outside the city, Rome, and the second death. Same God, same punishments. It does not matter where, or who you are, if you are a sinner the judgment is death.

[jriccitelli]

I have a question for you: You said: "...all views argue that life is a condition." I'm having a little trouble understanding what exactly you mean by this. (Michelle)

Not all, but 'most' any Evangelical Christian theologian would argue that any ‘life’ (our current mortality, inherited immortality, derived immortality, animated life, conscious life, unconscious life, eternal life) is dependant completely on God for its existence. Thus life is ‘always’ a condition, because God must will, sustain or provide all life forms something (from other than themselves) in order for them to exist. Even in the new earth it seems the tree (s?) of life are there to sustain our existence.
(Is there an Evangelical who would argue that God could not (not would not) destroy something he created? Some ETists think so. I find this odd to think something could exist even if God did not want it to exist. I do not believe immortality in any form could withstand Gods ability to destroy if he so chooses)

Particularly, I'm wondering if you are using a different shade of meaning for the word "condition"

I am particular to biblical definitions, and I would ‘hope’ Conditionalists are using it in the biblical sense. Strongs has about twenty words associated with condition, and they all seem to say about the same thing as our English definitions. As someone who loves doing biblical word studies as much as he loves pizza and fried chicken, it would be neat to do a word study through the bible on the use of the word condition. But anyways, I can’t see my definition as unusual from scripture (i.e. Paul in Cor. 7 “Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called”). I usually think of ‘condition’ in the sense of ‘unless you do this, it will remain thus’ (much like an ‘if then’ statement). All the Commandments are conditions, and the bible is full of conditions. The bible is also full of promises (or rewards), but they are also tied to conditions. The exceedingly most common two promises in scripture are life and death; ‘If you do this you will have life, if you do thus you will have death’. It is very clear, and it was well understood: life for the righteous, death for the unrighteous. Post-mortem life was veiled and vague but nonetheless ‘evident’.

The ‘Conditionalist’ theme is repeated in the overwhelming use of contrasts, i.e.: between the righteous and the unrighteous, good and evil, left and right, clean and the unclean, blessings and curses, believing and unbelieving, blind and seeing, wise and foolish, and as witnessed by the Qumran and Dead Sea texts ‘sons of light and sons of darkness’.

The conditional ‘if’ verses in scripture are way too common to mention, as are ‘If then’ statements, especially in the Law. (Numbers 16:30, 1 Chron.22:13, Jer. 4:1, Zech. 3:7). ‘If' stipulates a condition to blessings, as Evangelicals would agree, so I don’t know how ‘life’ became the exception to conditional blessings when all along life is the premiere and predominate blessing that has a condition.

‘If then’ statements are common to philosophy, reasoning, and in logic. In fact ‘if then’ is referred to as a ‘conditional statement’ in logic. Simply put: If A, then B. (Jesus also uses 'if then' reasoning as in Matt 22:45, John 3:3, 6:53)

‘Unless’ is also a synonym for Conditionalism. Moses and Jesus often use this reasoning as in "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you” and “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven” and "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans because they suffered this fate? 3 "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish” (Luke 13:2-3) and “That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I Am who I claim to be, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24) "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. 25 "He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal” (John 12:24-25) and Paul; “Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain” (Paul, 1Cor.15) and "We shall be free from this oath to you which you have made us swear, 18 unless, when we come into the land, you tie this cord of scarlet thread in the window through which you let us down” (these are good dexamples of the conditional life position)

Also, the definition of 'conditional life' is implied in the biblical command to choose life (Duet. 11:26, 30:19). God offers men a choice of life or death, so choose life.

[jriccitelli]

(As a side note on ‘Conditionalism’. I have never relied upon, or wanted to adjust my belief to conform to some group, committee, or brand of theology. Historically there has always been disagreement within every room of like-minded freethinking conformists and zealots. Although I understand and agree labels and association help us understand a person’s direction and preferences, still I have found labels confusing and oppressive rather than unifying or helpful. So association with any such group, person or label is not my objective, and I have only done so here occasionally to help define my leanings. So still I do not feel the need to conform or restrict my view, research or definitions in order to associate with other writers, Conditionalists, CI proponents, or any such group. Especially since observing that no two in any such group agree on everything anyways. Still I accept the labels and use them of others, but loosely. Let it be forever known that no label completely defines or categorizes any group of humans so completely that there are no exceptions, dissidents, or crazy persons in the room. So I and others, will ‘believe’ Moses, and go from there...)

[Michelle]

Wow, thanks for all that, jriccitelli! I so appreciate the time and effort you put into explaining yourself.

I especially liked this post:

(As a side note on ‘Conditionalism’. I have never relied upon, or wanted to adjust my belief to conform to some group, committee, or brand of theology. Historically there has always been disagreement within every room of like-minded freethinking conformists and zealots. Although I understand and agree labels and association help us understand a person’s direction and preferences, still I have found labels confusing and oppressive rather than unifying or helpful. So association with any such group, person or label is not my objective, and I have only done so here occasionally to help define my leanings. So still I do not feel the need to conform or restrict my view, research or definitions in order to associate with other writers, Conditionalists, CI proponents, or any such group. Especially since observing that no two in any such group agree on everything anyways. Still I accept the labels and use them of others, but loosely. Let it be forever known that no label completely defines or categorizes any group of humans so completely that there are no exceptions, dissidents, or crazy persons in the room. So I and others, will ‘believe’ Moses, and go from there...)

Yes, people form their own conclusions and are at different points in the maturing of their thinking. This is why, in my opinion, it is disrespectful to tell someone what they believe. What a waste of time to go about knocking down straw men! It's so much more productive, I think, to actually listen to (or read) what they say they believe and go from there.

Likewise, it seems unproductive to state a position and conclude with, "All evangelicals should agree." Why force everyone into your box? Thanks so much, JR, for the reminder.

With that in mind, my next question is about your understanding of Preterism.

My understanding of Preterism is that God fulfills His punishments just as he did in the past, and He will do so again. God repeats the same punishments for sin over and over, the punishments do not change. In fact the language does not change, God refers to the punishment of the past to describe the punishments of the future. The punishment in Genesis is the same as in Exodus, Joshua, Job, Psalms, Hosea, Joel, Sodom, Egypt, Babylon, Jerusalem, the wine press outside the city, Rome, and the second death. Same God, same punishments. It does not matter where, or who you are, if you are a sinner the judgment is death.

Huh? Do you have a source for this? I mean, yeah, God's standard of perfection does not change and only by being washed in the blood of the Lamb are we saved, but how are the punishments for sin specifically tied to the preterist view of prophecy?

[jriccitelli]

I wrote “If' stipulates a condition to blessings, as Evangelicals would agree”

What I meant was: promises in scripture were reserved for the righteous, that is ‘a righteousness by faith’. (Faith being the condition, this seems to be a very Evangelical belief). Is that what you understood my sentence to mean?

[Michelle]

I wrote “If' stipulates a condition to blessings, as Evangelicals would agree”

What I meant was: promises in scripture were reserved for the righteous, that is ‘a righteousness by faith’. (Faith being the condition, this seems to be a very Evangelical belief). Is that what you understood my sentence to mean?

Yes I did.

Sorry I didn't comment on that part of your posts. You explained things very well.

Edit: Are you asking this in response to my question about preterism? Was that paragraph (I'll copy and quote it below) meant to reassure someone (preterists, non-preterists, you, me, everyone??) that holding to a preterist view of prophecy does not lead to discounting the warnings and promises of scripture?

My understanding of Preterism is that God fulfills His punishments just as he did in the past, and He will do so again. God repeats the same punishments for sin over and over, the punishments do not change. In fact the language does not change, God refers to the punishment of the past to describe the punishments of the future. The punishment in Genesis is the same as in Exodus, Joshua, Job, Psalms, Hosea, Joel, Sodom, Egypt, Babylon, Jerusalem, the wine press outside the city, Rome, and the second death. Same God, same punishments. It does not matter where, or who you are, if you are a sinner the judgment is death.

[jriccitelli]

“holding to a preterist view of prophecy does not lead to discounting the warnings and promises of scripture”

Yes. What God did on earth – God will also do in heaven, and on earth, again. If God put sinners to death on earth, then God will sentence them to death at the last Judgment also (that is ‘unless’ they repent first and believe in His atonement for them, otherwise the penalty is the same post-mortem). I do not see any reason for the penalty for sin changing post-mortem. There is no indication that the penalty changes, and everything to indicate it remains the same, as in Conditionalism.
‘The wages of sin is death’ this statement doesn’t change meaning just because we are no longer in a body. It doesn’t change just because we are post-mortem. Otherwise the statement would mean ‘the result of death is life’. Wouldn't 'life' go against everything the bible says regarding sin. I do not see any shift in the penalty of sin from Genesis, the Prophets to Revelation. I can’t find my previous posts explaining what I mean in relation to Preterism, but I posted the following somewhere before:

… the reason I gave was that the language does not change much at all between the two Testaments.
I wrote on ‘…The officials of Judah and the officials of Jerusalem, the court officers and the priests and all the people of the land who passed between the parts of the calf— I will give them into the hand of their enemies and into the hand of those who seek their life. And their dead bodies will be food for the birds of the sky and the beasts of the earth. (Jer.34:19-20)
Jeremiah continues to speak of Judgment on sinners and Israel and yet this is the same language used in revelations, why is it the same language?

I thought this language was only for the ‘historical event’ of the Babylonian destruction and judgment of Jerusalem, yet it is used again by John to describe a different event, or is it a continuation of judgment for the same offences? Or is it because it is the same God who spoke through John, Ezekiel and Jeremiah etc?
Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.” (Rev.19:17-18)

Jeremiah repeats this also in chap.19;
‘I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies and by the hand of those who seek their life; and I will give over their carcasses as food for the birds of the sky and the beasts of the earth. 8 “I will also make this city a desolation and an object of hissing; everyone who passes by it will be astonished and hiss because of all its disasters. 9“I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they will eat one another’s flesh in the siege and in the distress with which their enemies and those who seek their life will distress them’ (Jer.19)

This is the same kind of language Ezekiel uses also, although Ezekiel may have heard Jeremiahs preaching he had no problem uttering the same judgments;
“As for you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD, ‘Speak to every kind of bird and to every beast of the field, “Assemble and come, gather from every side to My sacrifice which I am going to sacrifice for you, as a great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel, that you may eat flesh and drink blood. 18 “You will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, as though they were rams, lambs, goats and bulls, all of them fatlings of Bashan. 19 “So you will eat fat until you are glutted, and drink blood until you are drunk, from My sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you. 20 “You will be glutted at My table with horses and charioteers, with mighty men and all the men of war,” declares the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 39:17-20)

Ezekiel does a much better job of commentary on the proceeding verses above than I could;
21… and all the nations will see My judgment which I have executed and My hand which I have laid on them. 22 “And the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God from that day onward. 23 “The nations will know that the house of Israel went into exile for their iniquity because they acted treacherously against Me, and I hid My face from them; so I gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and all of them fell by the sword (Eze.39:21-24)

In other words when we see these Judgments, 'we also' will 'recognize' them as coming from the Lord. Because they repeat, they are on all sinners, and they are assured (gruesome I know , but hey, we have been warned ). Now lets go try and have a nice day And be thankful He took the penalty for my sins.

[TheEditor]

I have no dog in this fight, but I think what Michelle was asking, JR, is what does Preterism have to do with any of it? You stated:

My understanding of Preterism is that God fulfills His punishments just as he did in the past, and He will do so again.

To whcih Michelle responded:

how are the punishments for sin specifically tied to the preterist view of prophecy?

I'm not sure if that was answered.

Regards, Brenden.

[Michelle]

“holding to a preterist view of prophecy does not lead to discounting the warnings and promises of scripture”

Yes. What God did on earth – God will also do in heaven, and on earth, again. If God put sinners to death on earth, then God will sentence them to death at the last Judgment also (that is ‘unless’ they repent first and believe in His atonement for them, otherwise the penalty is the same post-mortem). I do not see any reason for the penalty for sin changing post-mortem. There is no indication that the penalty changes, and everything to indicate it remains the same, as in Conditionalism.
‘The wages of sin is death’ this statement doesn’t change meaning just because we are no longer in a body. It doesn’t change just because we are post-mortem. Otherwise the statement would mean ‘the result of death is life’. Wouldn't 'life' go against everything the bible says regarding sin. I do not see any shift in the penalty of sin from Genesis, the Prophets to Revelation. I can’t find my previous posts explaining what I mean in relation to Preterism, but I posted the following somewhere before:

… the reason I gave was that the language does not change much at all between the two Testaments.
I wrote on ‘…The officials of Judah and the officials of Jerusalem, the court officers and the priests and all the people of the land who passed between the parts of the calf— I will give them into the hand of their enemies and into the hand of those who seek their life. And their dead bodies will be food for the birds of the sky and the beasts of the earth. (Jer.34:19-20)
Jeremiah continues to speak of Judgment on sinners and Israel and yet this is the same language used in revelations, why is it the same language?

I thought this language was only for the ‘historical event’ of the Babylonian destruction and judgment of Jerusalem, yet it is used again by John to describe a different event, or is it a continuation of judgment for the same offences? Or is it because it is the same God who spoke through John, Ezekiel and Jeremiah etc?
Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.” (Rev.19:17-18)

Jeremiah repeats this also in chap.19;
‘I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies and by the hand of those who seek their life; and I will give over their carcasses as food for the birds of the sky and the beasts of the earth. 8 “I will also make this city a desolation and an object of hissing; everyone who passes by it will be astonished and hiss because of all its disasters. 9“I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they will eat one another’s flesh in the siege and in the distress with which their enemies and those who seek their life will distress them’ (Jer.19)

This is the same kind of language Ezekiel uses also, although Ezekiel may have heard Jeremiahs preaching he had no problem uttering the same judgments;
“As for you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD, ‘Speak to every kind of bird and to every beast of the field, “Assemble and come, gather from every side to My sacrifice which I am going to sacrifice for you, as a great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel, that you may eat flesh and drink blood. 18 “You will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, as though they were rams, lambs, goats and bulls, all of them fatlings of Bashan. 19 “So you will eat fat until you are glutted, and drink blood until you are drunk, from My sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you. 20 “You will be glutted at My table with horses and charioteers, with mighty men and all the men of war,” declares the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 39:17-20)

Ezekiel does a much better job of commentary on the proceeding verses above than I could;
21… and all the nations will see My judgment which I have executed and My hand which I have laid on them. 22 “And the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God from that day onward. 23 “The nations will know that the house of Israel went into exile for their iniquity because they acted treacherously against Me, and I hid My face from them; so I gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and all of them fell by the sword (Eze.39:21-24)

In other words when we see these Judgments, 'we also' will 'recognize' them as coming from the Lord. Because they repeat, they are on all sinners, and they are assured (gruesome I know , but hey, we have been warned ). Now lets go try and have a nice day And be thankful He took the penalty for my sins.

Thanks for the response, jricitelli. I am thankful that Jesus took the penalty for your sins. And mine. And everyone who puts his or her faith in Him.

Do you believe that every gruesome death is a judgement from God? Those Christian children in Iraq, did their martyrdom serve to make you recognize them as coming from the Lord?