Punishment and the fear of God

[steve7150]

but that does not seem to fit with the warnings of horror presented in scripture.











I must be missing something but the descriptions of judgment and hell are clear whether or not Gehenna symbolically means hell or not. Jesus did differentiate levels of punishment in his comment that some receive many stripes and some receive few.
If Gehenna is hell then the punishments sound more fearsome but i would have to include the Mark 9 conclusion "for everyone will be salted with fire" as a clear reference to Gehenna which he had just talked about. This concluding comment sounds like the purpose of Gehenna is punishment as part of a goal of purification.

[Homer]

It seems to me the important point being made by JR is not being grasped. The Old Testament has many examples of God's judgment on sin (and sinners). They are, I believe, types that portend a future reality: again and again there is judgment with no second chances.

A definition of a type:

“A type is essentially a prefiguring of something future from itself. It is a person, institution, office, action, or event, by means of which some truth of the Gospel was divinely foreshadowed under the Old Testament dispensations. Whatever was thus prefigured is called the antitype” (Biblical Hermeneutics, Milton S. Terry, p. 336).

Paul plainly speaks of this:

1 Corinthians 10:1-11 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

1. For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2. and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3. and all ate the same spiritual food; 4. and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

6.Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. 7. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play.” 8. Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. 9. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. 10. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

And Peter:

2 Peter 3:3-9 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

3. Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4. and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” 5. For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6. through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7. But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

The Old testament types reveal God to be patient with sinners, but that patience is not unlimited. Judgment eventually comes and sinners are destroyed. Universalism posits not just a second chance, but an unlimited second chance. I ask the advocate for universalism to show an Old Testament type that represents their position. We find the opposite.

I can not believe the threats of Gehenna in the Sermon on the Mount are not as applicable to us as they were to those who heard Jesus' words.

[steve]

I will answer JR when his comments actually display awareness of the points I made, to which he is ostensibly referring.


Homer wrote:

I ask the advocate for universalism to show an Old Testament type that represents their position. We find the opposite.

I am not sure what you are looking for, and I don't qualify as an advocate of universalism, but it seems that if one wished to see Old Testament judgments resulting in later restoration as "types" of universalism, there is no problem locating them. The most obvious is God's restoring Judah (in 539 BC) following the original judgment of Gehenna (that is the Babylonian exile of 586 BC—Jer.7:32-34). In the Old Testament prophets, one can hardly find a prediction of this judgment that is not followed by the promise of restoration.

To this could be added every prophecy of the restoration of Israel or Ephraim uttered after their destruction in 722 BC (e.g., Jer.31:18-20). Similar predictions of the restoration of Sodom (Ezek.16:53, 55), of Egypt and Assyria (Isaiah 19:22-25) subsequent to their judgments might also be seen as Old Testament types of restorationism. While it might be denied that any of these are intended as "types" of ultimate eschatological judgment, it can, on the same basis, be doubted that other Old Testament references to judgment are intended thus.

In the context of the destruction of Jerusalem, in 586 BC, Lamentations does seem to make a generic statement about God's judgment upon mankind:

For the Lord will not cast off forever.
Though He causes grief,
Yet He will show compassion
According to the multitude of His mercies.
For He does not afflict willingly,
Nor grieve the children of men.
Lam.3:31-33

I can not believe the threats of Gehenna in the Sermon on the Mount are not as applicable to us as they were to those who heard Jesus' words.

We are often unaware of the embedded presuppositions which make us not able to accept certain unfamiliar concepts.

[Please, before anyone seeks to respond to this post, at least read it as many times as it takes to understand my statements, and also read the references I give. I go to the trouble of providing them for the benefit of those actually interested in what the Bible says. The fact that a reader's personal prejudices are not favorable to their implications is not a valid reason not to read the actual scriptures provided. I get the distinct impression that some people respond as an impulse without actually looking up the verses provided.]

[Candlepower]

Your explanation just doesn't make sense to me regarding Luke 10:15.

WHAT??? Impossible!!! Everything I say makes sense (to me).

Okay, okay, see if this makes any sense:

What Jesus said in Luke 10:15 sounds much like what He said (through Isaiah) to the king of Babylon in Isaiah 14:12-21, especially verse 15: “Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the lowest depths of the Pit.” It sounds to me that on both occasions (Is 14:15 & Luke 10:15) God was pronouncing temporal judgment on arrogant unrepentance.

As you know, the Bible speaks of two deaths. The first is physical…everybody goes there. But the second death is for the unrepentant, and it occurs at the Final Judgment (Rev.20:14). Luke 10:14 mentions “The Judgment.” I take that to mean the Lake of Fire Judgment. I take Verse 15, however, to be speaking of temporal judgment (physical destruction, which probably happened as soon as AD 65-70).

If I am understanding you correctly, you are equating “The Judgment” (v 14) with “Hades” (v 15). I don’t see such a connection, and I don’t think the text requires it. Besides, by establishing such a connection, you end up equating Hades and The LOF. Linguistically and logically that cannot be so. Hades = the grave. Putting fire in the grave is adding a nuance to the word’s definition that the Greeks didn’t put there, as far as I know. And, Hades gets thrown into the LOF, so they cannot be equivalent.

The Luke text in question pronounces temporal and non-temporal judgments (two deaths) on particular cities.

That’s the way I see it, and it makes perfect sense to me. Good day, brother.

[Homer]

Matthew 11:20-24

Candlepower,

Still does not make sense to me. Considering the parallel passage in Matthew along with Luke, I think you will see that the same judgment falls on all three cities:

Matthew 11:20-24, New American Standard Bible (NASB)

20. Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent. 21. “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22. Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23. And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. 24. Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.”

You wrote:

Luke 10:14 mentions “The Judgment.” I take that to mean the Lake of Fire Judgment.

And wouldn't the day of judgment statement in Matthew be the "Lake of Fire"?

Luke placed the reference to Sodom prior to naming Chorazin and Bethsaida, Matthew aims the Sodom warning to Capernaum, or possibly all three. The only way I see to reconcile Matthew and Luke is that the threat to those who reject the Gospel applies equally to all, and still does. If you don't see this I will leave you be.

Blessings!

[jriccitelli]

I will answer JR when his comments actually display awareness of the points I made, to which he is ostensibly referring.

I think your being to kind, I am not as clairvoyant as you perceive me to be. I guess you have already answered every objection to everything somewhere, so I suppose no one here should look any further than your lectures and books, and you needn’t be troubled by looking here just to repeat yourself.

I see Lamentations as proof that God does what He promised to do;
The LORD has done what He purposed; He has accomplished His word Which He commanded from days of old. He has thrown down without sparing, And He has caused the enemy to rejoice over you; He has exalted the might of your adversaries. (2:17)
God is forgiving and long suffering ‘if’ you repent; He will not cast off forever, and He will show compassion ‘if’ they repent (and may also show faith and sincerity with God). Yet, It does not seem that most repent and show faith, and it is so right through Revelation.
The LORD is good to those who wait for Him, to the person who seeks Him. (3:25)
Scripture demands all to repent, seek Him, wait on Him, and fear Him. No sinners are saved short of repentance, and there is no real indication of hope for the unrepentant dead in Jeremiahs time, certainly a brush with death has inspired many to lament and put on sackcloth but there is no indication that salvation came to all the dead then, or is coming to all the dead future. It does indicate that the repentant, and a remnant are saved by grace. Note that Jeremiah gives no charity or hope to his persecutors;
You will recompense them, O LORD, According to the work of their hands. 65You will give them hardness of heart, Your curse will be on them. 66You will pursue them in anger and destroy them From under the heavens of the LORD! (3:64-65)
Those who perished in Jerusalem perished in judgment, just as those in 70 ad. There is hope for those who repented, but not for those who don’t. God will not cast off forever those who love him. Throughout all the Prophets Gods promises of restoration and compassion are 'side by side' with promises of destruction for those who don't love Him. Are these warnings of judgment supposed to have an effect, as we said are they not an example of Gods judgment and righteous anger on sin?

[Jepne]

I grew up scared of my father's wrath and punitive attitude - God rest his soul - not so much the actual punishment. It was his heart that mattered to me.

When I go across the border, I think two, three times about what I am going to say, making sure I have written down everything I am bringing across and why, so I don't lose my 'good standing' card.

I have NEVER been scared of God or Jesus. I check my heart as I go through the day so I can maintain fellowship with Him. When I sin it is because I have lost sight of His love.

[TheEditor]

"But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you."
Mat 11:24

More tolerable for Sodom. How?

Regards, Brenden.

[steve]

Once again, JR, you are not observing my point. I have stopped expecting you to do so. In citing Lamentations and other passages, I was answering Homer's question about "types" of judgment in the Old Testament that could point to restorationism. I gave several possibilities. "Types" are not the same thing as "examples," or "instances." Let me clarify:

The salvation of eight souls in the ark is said to be a "type" of Christian baptism. The story does not give an "example" or "instance" of Christian baptism. No one on the ark was a Christian. None was baptized (that is, immersed). No one got wet. They all went through the ordeal together as a group (Christian baptism is an individual experience). This was not an instance of Christian baptism. Nonetheless, the story of God sparing a group of people from the judgment of the world, including their safe passage through water, in principle, exhibits parallels to to our being saved through baptism (1 Peter 3:21).

Similarly, you cite Old Testament instances of judgment upon sinful nations as "types" of the eschatological judgment of individual sinners. This may, in certain cases, be valid (as with Sodom—Jude 7). If the judgment of Sodom, or any other wicked society, serves as a type of God's ultimate judgment on sinful individuals, the question is: Does the Bible depict these judgments as final, from which no restoration is expected?

My post answered that question.

Therefore, whether the individuals who died are said to have a second chance or not is irrelevant to the point. The judgments upon the nations are the "types" in question. They are the same judgments that you are using to say the results of God's punishments are terminal. I am merely pointing out that this terminal aspect is specifically denied by the prophets.

[Homer]

Steve,

You wrote,

I am not sure what you are looking for, and I don't qualify as an advocate of universalism, but it seems that if one wished to see Old Testament judgments resulting in later restoration as "types" of universalism, there is no problem locating them. The most obvious is God's restoring Judah (in 539 BC) following the original judgment of Gehenna (that is the Babylonian exile of 586 BC—Jer.7:32-34). In the Old Testament prophets, one can hardly find a prediction of this judgment that is not followed by the promise of restoration.

I am very surprised that you would see anything about the Babylonian captivity, your "most obvious" type for universalism, as any support at all. It would seem to be the opposite. In 2 Chronicles we read how God was patient toward Israel, until His patience reached its limit:

2 Chronicles 36:14-16, New American Standard Bible (NASB)

14. Furthermore, all the officials of the priests and the people were very unfaithful following all the abominations of the nations; and they defiled the house of the Lord which He had sanctified in Jerusalem.
15. The Lord, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place; 16. but they continually mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against His people, until there was no remedy.

Then we read that "those who escaped the sword" were carried away into captivity. Some 70 years later, only a remnant returned, no doubt a great many having died in during those 70 years. Additionally, others chose to remain in Babylon. How this supports universalism escapes me. Those in Babylon who chose to stay would seemingly fit with the unrepentant in Hell.

Do you have some OT examples of entire groups who are given a second chance (same individuals), once judged? I'd be glad to look at them if you do.

God bless!