If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"
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Singalphile
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Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"
From what I'm reading from you all, it doesn't sound like there is any disagreement on this issue.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23
Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"
What? There is profound disagreement! Here are the positions of the two sides as I see it:Singalphile, you wrote:From what I'm reading from you all, it doesn't sound like there is any disagreement on this issue.
1. Everyone who comes to Christ is motivated by a desire to receive rewards and/or escape punishment. If not, what would the motivation be? If we don't want something for ourselves from Christ, why would we ever come to Him?
2. Everyone who would be Christ's disciple must repent (have a change of heart and mind) concerning how he has been living, put his whole life under the authority of Christ. If he is drawn to Christ only in order to receive rewards and/or escape punishment, his discipleship is questionable.
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"
How about desiring the reward of knowing Christ?Paidion wrote:What? There is profound disagreement! Here are the positions of the two sides as I see it:Singalphile, you wrote:From what I'm reading from you all, it doesn't sound like there is any disagreement on this issue.
1. Everyone who comes to Christ is motivated by a desire to receive rewards and/or escape punishment. If not, what would the motivation be? If we don't want something for ourselves from Christ, why would we ever come to Him?
2. Everyone who would be Christ's disciple must repent (have a change of heart and mind) concerning how he has been living, put his whole life under the authority of Christ. If he is drawn to Christ only in order to receive rewards and/or escape punishment, his discipleship is questionable.
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Singalphile
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- Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:46 pm
Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"
Well, those are two views, but my point is that no one here agrees with #1 and everyone here agrees with #2.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23
Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"
Hi Singalphile,
It appears to me that there are some advocating Position #1. If not, there never would have been expressions of disagreement with my post—since nothing but Position #1 has been critiqued by me here. By definition, there is no way to disagree with my case other than to affirm that position. That is why I have been so surprised by some of the responses. Like you, I certainly would not have expected to find anyone here defending Position #1.
It appears to me that there are some advocating Position #1. If not, there never would have been expressions of disagreement with my post—since nothing but Position #1 has been critiqued by me here. By definition, there is no way to disagree with my case other than to affirm that position. That is why I have been so surprised by some of the responses. Like you, I certainly would not have expected to find anyone here defending Position #1.
Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"
Funny how we all hear something different, even when we all speak the same language. No wonder it is so hard to gat at the original meaning and intent of the writers of scripture who wrote 2 - 5 thousand years ago.
Singalphile wrote,
Paidion wrote,
But, I have not seen anyone here say that EVERYONE who comes to Christ is motivated by a desire to receive rewards and/or escape punishment. A few people here do say that SOME people come to Christ with these motivations. Those same people think that the motivation that moves them to Christ is enough to make them disciples, while others do not.
I think that the issue hangs, partly, on the concept that Thrombomodulin brought forward: There seems to be a difference between self interest and selfish interest. Selfish interest is what one displays when they seek their own good. Self interest, according to Thrombomodulin's definition, is something that is impossible for anyone to avoid. Obviously, if I value Christ's pleasure over mine, and I make choices according to those values, I am self interested because I do what I want to do - please Christ.
Based on this thinking, it is impossible to not be self interested. I suspect that even God cannot act without self interest. Surely He values some things over others and acts accordingly. The question is, when one's heart is motivated by their desire to avoid hell, is it enough to make them a disciple? On the flip side, if one's heart is motivated by their desire to please God, and they act according to what they believe God's desires are, they have demonstrated self interest, in that they do what they willed to do. But it does not follow that they did this for their own pleasure.
Singalphile wrote,
Singalphile wrote,
Can't say as I agree with you, Singalphile. There is disagreement.From what I'm reading from you all, it doesn't sound like there is any disagreement on this issue.
Paidion wrote,
I agree that there is disagreement!What? There is profound disagreement!... 1. Everyone who comes to Christ is motivated by a desire to receive rewards and/or escape punishment. If not, what would the motivation be? If we don't want something for ourselves from Christ, why would we ever come to Him?
But, I have not seen anyone here say that EVERYONE who comes to Christ is motivated by a desire to receive rewards and/or escape punishment. A few people here do say that SOME people come to Christ with these motivations. Those same people think that the motivation that moves them to Christ is enough to make them disciples, while others do not.I think that the issue hangs, partly, on the concept that Thrombomodulin brought forward: There seems to be a difference between self interest and selfish interest. Selfish interest is what one displays when they seek their own good. Self interest, according to Thrombomodulin's definition, is something that is impossible for anyone to avoid. Obviously, if I value Christ's pleasure over mine, and I make choices according to those values, I am self interested because I do what I want to do - please Christ.
Based on this thinking, it is impossible to not be self interested. I suspect that even God cannot act without self interest. Surely He values some things over others and acts accordingly. The question is, when one's heart is motivated by their desire to avoid hell, is it enough to make them a disciple? On the flip side, if one's heart is motivated by their desire to please God, and they act according to what they believe God's desires are, they have demonstrated self interest, in that they do what they willed to do. But it does not follow that they did this for their own pleasure.
Singalphile wrote,
Homer said,Well, those are two views, but my point is that no one here agrees with #1 and everyone here agrees with #2.
From what I can tell, Homer agrees with #1, if EVERYONE is changed to SOME while others would disagree with #1 whether it applies to EVERYONE or SOME. That seems like a pretty fundamental difference of opinion.What I am saying is that a person who comes to Christ in faith, submits to him as Lord, motivated by either a fear of hell or a hope of heaven, or both, is saved.
"My memory is nearly gone; but I remember two things: That I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Savior." - John Newton
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Singalphile
- Posts: 903
- Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:46 pm
Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"
Okay, fine. Maybe there's some small little gray area where there's some disagreement, but not really on the whole, I still think, but I don't want to debate whether or not there's a debate. Edit: Got a work call. Had to go do something. Anyway, I don't recall disagreeing with anything anyone wrote here, so I assumed that no one disagreed.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23
Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"
It seems to me you see in scripture statements that almost seem contradictory like,
"Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love DOES NOT KNOW GOD because God is love." 1st John 4.7-8 Here it sounds straightforward in that love means knowing God and without it you don't know God and therefore by extension are not saved.
But the later John says,
"If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God , God lives in him and they in God." 1st John 4.15 So must you "love" or must you simply acknowledge Jesus is the Son of God?
I think John is saying that at the onset all you need to believe is that Jesus is the Son of God, and John gives no special reason or motivation. After some time i think you need to mature as a believer into a follower or disciple and then "love" becomes the only acceptable foundation of your faith.
"Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love DOES NOT KNOW GOD because God is love." 1st John 4.7-8 Here it sounds straightforward in that love means knowing God and without it you don't know God and therefore by extension are not saved.
But the later John says,
"If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God , God lives in him and they in God." 1st John 4.15 So must you "love" or must you simply acknowledge Jesus is the Son of God?
I think John is saying that at the onset all you need to believe is that Jesus is the Son of God, and John gives no special reason or motivation. After some time i think you need to mature as a believer into a follower or disciple and then "love" becomes the only acceptable foundation of your faith.
Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"
I don't know if 'you' in the quote above is me, but I don't see the two scriptures you pointed out as contradictory, but complimentary. I think that the bible we read would probably be double in size if, each time a concept is mentioned, every related idea had to be fully explained. "If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God.... they will love (italics mine). And that love is evidence that we are saved.It seems to me you see in scripture statements that almost seem contradictory like,
1 John 4:19 says, "We love Him because He first loved us." The process of sanctification causes our love to develop. I can't say that I had strong feelings of love at the beginning. Those are developing as I mature and come to know God. But that doesn't change what was in my heart at conversion. There is still a vast difference between choosing God to save myself and choosing God because He deserves it. As I mature, the attitude of my heart (desire to please Him) doesn't change. But my understanding of the mechanics of loving God more perfectly and of how truly selfish I am/was, does.After some time i think you need to mature as a believer into a follower or disciple and then "love" becomes the only acceptable foundation of your faith.
"My memory is nearly gone; but I remember two things: That I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Savior." - John Newton
Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"
I think there is much misunderstanding of what we are each trying to communicate. I never in this thread have said that the person at step #1 is a Christian. Let me cite an example from scripture of a person who appears to be motivated to love God out of self interest. I believe the person's faith was acceptable to God. I believe he was at step #2 at the time (note God's promises in 13-15 and Jacob's vow in 20-22):
Genesis 28:10-22, New King James Version (NKJV)
10. Now Jacob went out from Beersheba and went toward Haran. 11. So he came to a certain place and stayed there all night, because the sun had set. And he took one of the stones of that place and put it at his head, and he lay down in that place to sleep. 12. Then he dreamed, and behold, a ladder was set up on the earth, and its top reached to heaven; and there the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.
13. And behold, the Lord stood above it and said: “I am the Lord God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and your descendants. 14. Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and in you and in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed. 15. Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have spoken to you.”
16. Then Jacob awoke from his sleep and said, “Surely the Lord is in this place, and I did not know it.” 17. And he was afraid and said, “How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven!”
18. Then Jacob rose early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put at his head, set it up as a pillar, and poured oil on top of it. 19. And he called the name of that place Bethel; but the name of that city had been Luz previously. 20. Then Jacob made a vow, saying, “If God will be with me, and keep me in this way that I am going, and give me bread to eat and clothing to put on, 21. so that I come back to my father’s house in peace, then the Lord shall be my God. 22. And this stone which I have set as a pillar shall be God’s house, and of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You.”
How different is it today if people are told of the blessings of the reception of the spirit, joy, peace, and eternal life to come, contrasted with condemnation and a future hell, and then for them to make a vow in baptism to follow Jesus? Shall we kick them out or welcome them with joy into the fold?
What say you: are they saved or condemned?
Genesis 28:10-22, New King James Version (NKJV)
10. Now Jacob went out from Beersheba and went toward Haran. 11. So he came to a certain place and stayed there all night, because the sun had set. And he took one of the stones of that place and put it at his head, and he lay down in that place to sleep. 12. Then he dreamed, and behold, a ladder was set up on the earth, and its top reached to heaven; and there the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.
13. And behold, the Lord stood above it and said: “I am the Lord God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and your descendants. 14. Also your descendants shall be as the dust of the earth; you shall spread abroad to the west and the east, to the north and the south; and in you and in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed. 15. Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have spoken to you.”
16. Then Jacob awoke from his sleep and said, “Surely the Lord is in this place, and I did not know it.” 17. And he was afraid and said, “How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven!”
18. Then Jacob rose early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put at his head, set it up as a pillar, and poured oil on top of it. 19. And he called the name of that place Bethel; but the name of that city had been Luz previously. 20. Then Jacob made a vow, saying, “If God will be with me, and keep me in this way that I am going, and give me bread to eat and clothing to put on, 21. so that I come back to my father’s house in peace, then the Lord shall be my God. 22. And this stone which I have set as a pillar shall be God’s house, and of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You.”
How different is it today if people are told of the blessings of the reception of the spirit, joy, peace, and eternal life to come, contrasted with condemnation and a future hell, and then for them to make a vow in baptism to follow Jesus? Shall we kick them out or welcome them with joy into the fold?
What say you: are they saved or condemned?