If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

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john6809
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Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by john6809 » Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:21 am

I think you are avoiding the point Peter was making to the specific audience in question. Peter was telling Jews in Jerusalem that just like the Northern Kingdom was in the sights of the Assyrians and the Southern Kingdom was in the sights of the Babylonians the Jews in the first century Jews were going to have a Day of the Lord military disaster applied to them as well. Jesus taught exactly this message when he referred to Jeremiah 7 and 19 and possibly Isaiah 66 in his speeches. Those people in that day were due to be wiped out. It was a national disaster. Sure, an individual person could get away but that was not the point. The point was that the nation was in jeopardy. The people (thousands of them on Pentecost) repented because of the threat that the nation was going to be sent to hell.
I don't think that is the point that Peter is trying to make. The unsaved crowds are mocking the disciples and accusing them of being drunk. Peter is explaining that, what was written in Joel was what they were witnessing - you know, the part about how He would pour out His Spirit on His people and verse 33 shows that this is Peter's main point where he says, "...He poured out this which you now see and hear."

Then in verse 36, he points out to the crowds that the Man they crucified had been made both Lord and Christ. At this the people were 'cut to the heart'. This doesn't sound like fear of impending doom but rather, guilt for having been responsible for the death of their Christ combined with a desire to submit to the One who had been made Lord and Christ. No, I don't think that the motivation of these men on this day was the fact that they might avoid doom if they repented, but rather, an awakening by the Holy Spirit to the Lordship of Jesus.
"My memory is nearly gone; but I remember two things: That I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Savior." - John Newton

steve7150
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Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by steve7150 » Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:11 am

Where I am having difficulty is seeing the where to "draw the line".



Perhaps the "line" is in the phrase "Love your neighbor like you love yourself." What does "love yourself" mean? Does Jesus use it to mean , it's a given you carnal men will love yourselves so look at others with the same lens you look at yourself? Or does he mean it's good to love yourself (and therefore fulfill your self interest)
as long as you treat others with the same love you have for yourself? "Do unto others as you would do to yourself."

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Paidion
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Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by Paidion » Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:35 pm

Thank you, Steve G for the explanation you gave on July 31, concerning serving Christ for His own sake, and not in order to get a reward or avoid punishment. The analogy of children obeying parents for who they are rather than for reward or avoidance of punishment is excellent. Though there are children who obey only for the rewards or to avoid punishment, they don't have an obedient heart. If the parents aren't watching, they do their own thing. But those who love and trust their parents obey exactly for that reason. Of course they are happy to be rewarded as well.

I found your argument and examples quite convincing. But I didn't need convincing since I already saw it that way. However, if I had needed convincing, I think I would have been convinced.

Homer shared this verse:

But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. (Heb 11:6)

This verse affirms that it is necessary to have faith in order to please God. It then states that in order to come to God one must believe that He exists? How could one come to God otherwise? And yes, it says that in order to come to God one must believe that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. To diligently seek Him implies that one is asking Him for something. If one doesn't believe that God might grant his request, he certainly wouldn't come to God making a request. The verse doesn't say that one cannot be a disciple of Christ or pleasing to God if he does not expect to receive a reward or to avoid punishment.
Paidion

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Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by Paidion » Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:50 pm

steve7150 wrote:What does "love yourself" mean? Does Jesus use it to mean , it's a given you carnal men will love yourselves so look at others with the same lens you look at yourself? Or does he mean it's good to love yourself (and therefore fulfill your self interest)as long as you treat others with the same love you have for yourself? "Do unto others as you would do to yourself."
There are plenty of people who try to justify their self-love by interpreting Chris't command as a command to love oneself. I think that's wishful thinking. Christ assumed that all people love themselves. So Christ is asking His disciples to love others just as much. I don't think Steve Gregg is saying that a real Christian doesn't have any self-love. I think he's saying that self-service ought not to be his motive for being a Christian or loving Christ. If it is his motive, then the discipleship of such a one is questionable.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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dwilkins
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Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by dwilkins » Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:02 pm

If there is to be no self interest or expectation of reward for work in the kingdom in this life then what is the point of this parable?

Luk 19:12 He said therefore, "A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return.
Luk 19:13 Calling ten of his servants, he gave them ten minas, and said to them, 'Engage in business until I come.'
Luk 19:14 But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, 'We do not want this man to reign over us.'
Luk 19:15 When he returned, having received the kingdom, he ordered these servants to whom he had given the money to be called to him, that he might know what they had gained by doing business.
Luk 19:16 The first came before him, saying, 'Lord, your mina has made ten minas more.'
Luk 19:17 And he said to him, 'Well done, good servant! Because you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have authority over ten cities.'
Luk 19:18 And the second came, saying, 'Lord, your mina has made five minas.'
Luk 19:19 And he said to him, 'And you are to be over five cities.'
Luk 19:20 Then another came, saying, 'Lord, here is your mina, which I kept laid away in a handkerchief;
Luk 19:21 for I was afraid of you, because you are a severe man. You take what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow.'
Luk 19:22 He said to him, 'I will condemn you with your own words, you wicked servant! You knew that I was a severe man, taking what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow?
Luk 19:23 Why then did you not put my money in the bank, and at my coming I might have collected it with interest?'
Luk 19:24 And he said to those who stood by, 'Take the mina from him, and give it to the one who has the ten minas.'
Luk 19:25 And they said to him, 'Lord, he has ten minas!'
Luk 19:26 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
Luk 19:27 But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.'"
Luk 19:28 And when he had said these things, he went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem.


Doug

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steve
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Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by steve » Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:17 pm

If there is to be no self interest or expectation of reward for work in the kingdom in this life then what is the point of this parable?
Doug,

Can you direct me to any post, by any person, which has asserted the premises stated in the above question? It would seem to me pretty silly for anyone to try to defend such propositions. I have not encountered these claims, either on this forum, nor anywhere in all my reading in my lifetime. Are there really people that say that self-interest and expectation of rewards do not exist in legitimate kingdom work?

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Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by dwilkins » Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:54 pm

steve wrote:
If there is to be no self interest or expectation of reward for work in the kingdom in this life then what is the point of this parable?
Doug,

Can you direct me to any post, by any person, which has asserted the premises stated in the above question? It would seem to me pretty silly for anyone to try to defend such propositions. I have not encountered these claims, either on this forum, nor anywhere in all my reading in my lifetime. Are there really people that say that self-interest and expectation of rewards do not exist in legitimate kingdom work?
I guess I misunderstood the point you were making. It sounded to me like you were saying that self-interest was a problem.

Doug

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Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by Homer » Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:00 pm

Could I please get an answer to this question?
What I am saying is that a person who comes to Christ in faith, submits to him as Lord, motivated by either a fear of hell or a hope of heaven, or both, is saved. This is, I believe, Bernard's step 2. This could be the case even if the person believed the universalist idea, some of whom also preach a fierce hell. Is it your contention the person must have no self interest in order to be saved?
Yes or no would be fine.

Thanks

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john6809
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Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by john6809 » Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:06 pm

Could I please get an answer to this question?



What I am saying is that a person who comes to Christ in faith, submits to him as Lord, motivated by either a fear of hell or a hope of heaven, or both, is saved. This is, I believe, Bernard's step 2. This could be the case even if the person believed the universalist idea, some of whom also preach a fierce hell. Is it your contention the person must have no self interest in order to be saved?


Yes or no would be fine.

Thanks
Homer,

I don't know if you are specifically waiting for an answer from Steve, but for what it's worth, here is my two bits. The idea of Bernard's step 2 reminds me of a little story my wife told me about. It talks about a little child whose mother has asked her, repeatedly, to sit down. After refusing a few times, the mother attaches a threat to the "sit down" order. The child outwardly obeys, but if you saw the look on the child's face, you would know exactly what they were saying silently - "I'm sitting on the outside, but on the inside I am standing."

From my perspective, though I am not dogmatic about it, I cannot see how the man who responds to a threat of hell or a promise of reward and "submits " to Christ, has actually undergone a death to self, a regeneration, a rebirth, if you will. He is simply following the same course of action that he has his entire life - getting the best he can for himself. It may be that, after being exposed to repeated encounters with God's people (and consequently, His word and Spirit) because of the crowd he now associates with, that he eventually understands that his original profession was not from the purest of motives. Is this how Bernard describes the transition from rung 2 to 3? If it is, I would be more inclined to think that the process the man underwent from His original profession up to rung 3 is not sanctification, but being exposed to the seed and water until his eventual conversion (straight to rung 3). In other words, I see rung 2 as an extension of rung 1 but with the outward appearance of "doing the right thing."

I can't give any specific scripture that I would use to defend this thinking. I only know that the requirements that Jesus made for people to be His disciples do not mix (in my mind) with the idea of becoming a disciple out of fear or ambition for gain for oneself.

On a personal note, when I was backslidden from my mid twenties to my late thirties, I often laid awake at night, terrified that if I died at that moment, I would spend eternity in Hell. That was never enough though, to turn my heart back to Him. My life turned around when I finally came to the point where I had had enough of ripping off the One who died for me, and decided that I needed to commit myself to prayer and reading His word if I was ever going to learn to please Him. And I knew that I would remain miserable as long as He was not pleased with me. As He continues to work in me, I have come to realize that even my desire for Him to be pleased with me was selfish. It made ME feel good and safe. I am slowly becoming less concerned with feeling this way and more concerned with Him being pleased because He deserves to be.
"My memory is nearly gone; but I remember two things: That I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Savior." - John Newton

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steve
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Re: If eternal conscious torment is false, then its "party time"

Post by steve » Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:37 am

Could I please get an answer to this question?



What I am saying is that a person who comes to Christ in faith, submits to him as Lord, motivated by either a fear of hell or a hope of heaven, or both, is saved. This is, I believe, Bernard's step 2. This could be the case even if the person believed the universalist idea, some of whom also preach a fierce hell. Is it your contention the person must have no self interest in order to be saved?


Yes or no would be fine.

Thanks
How could a self have "no self-interest"? We are not discussing becoming a non-self. We are talking about motivation for following Christ. If one is following Christ primarily or exclusively out of self-interest, there is no biblical reason to be assured of his conversion. It's that simple. I don't go around deciding who is or is not saved. However, I do think I have an idea, based upon scripture, of what is required of a person in order to be saved: repentance. This word means a change of mind. What has to change in the mind? Simply the opinion of whose interests will come first in one's life from that point onward.

John6809 certainly has Jesus' words entirely on his side in this matter. So do I. This is the only way I, or any of us, would know of these conditions. I have to say that this disagreement is the most surprising one I have ever encountered on this forum. I never thought we would encounter disagreement on a matter so fundamental to the definition of Christianity as the need for genuine repentance.

Though fear is not absent in the heart of the wise man (in fact, it is the beginning of wisdom), conversions in Acts seem to be the result of conviction more than of fear.

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