Questions for the universalist

[Homer]

Hello Paidion,

You wrote:

We labor and strive for [piety] because we have set our hope on the living God who is the savior of ALL people, especially of the faithful. I Timothy 4:10

So, if the faithless ones will NEVER be saved as you seem to suggest, then in what sense is God their Savior as this verse affirms?

I am glad you asked this question. I think I can help you out . Consider what Peter had to say:

Acts 5:30-32 (New King James Version)
30. The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. 31. Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. 32. And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

Here we see the sense in which he is Savior. He came to give (Grk didomi) repentance and forgiveness of sins. Didomi is a verbal noun, expressing what He is and does. We also see the same word used by John of God's giving:

John 3:16 (New King James Version)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

And also by Paul:

1 Timothy 2:3-6 (New King James Version)
3. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4. who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6. who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

Bear in mind that it is a gift, not forced on anyone. As Peter noted, Jesus,as savior, came to give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. Even though they refused His gift and crucified Him He was still the Savior, though they were faithless, just as He is to any who will come to Him.

Your system is as deterministic as Calvinism, and is based on a philosophical view, with little else other than proof-texting and disputing the translation of certain words.

I was hoping to see a comment from you regarding my previous post on Colossians 1:15-23.

God bless, Homer

[Paidion]

Do you see any promise in the following passage that the unfaithful will be saved?

We labor and strive for [piety] because we have set our hope on the living God who is the savior of ALL people, especially of the faithful. I Timothy 4:10

So, if the faithless ones will NEVER be saved as you seem to suggest, then in what sense is God their Savior as this verse affirms?

Because salvation is open to all

Paul did not write, "...we have set our hope on the living God who makes salvation open to all people, especially of the faithful".

Paul did not write, "... we have set our hope on the living God who is the potential savior of all people, especially of the faithful."

Paul wrote, "... we have set our hope on the living God who IS the savior of ALL people, especially of the faithful.

Your system is as deterministic as Calvinism ...

If by "your system" you refer to the salvation of all, as the scripture teaches, I think your statement quoted above is ludicrous. There is absolutely NOTHING deterministic about it; it is fully consistent with free will.

Even now, God is taking steps to lead people to repentance. Does that make the process "deterministic"? If not, then God's more severe methods ---- correction in Gehenna coupled with the enduring gospel being proclaimed to the lost does not make salvation any more deterministic. People may resist as long as they want to do so. But eventually, no one will want to resist any longer.

In your "system" once people die, they are relegated to an eternity to heaven or hell. So what is the purpose of "the everlasting gospel" (as you would translate it)? In your "system", surely the gospel will no longer needed, since every one is set for eternity in the state in which they find themselves immediately after death. So why is the gospel "everlasting"?

[Paidion]

Paul informs us in v.16 that all things were created by Him. And what are the "all things" Paul has in mind? Thrones, powers, rulers, and authorities! Would it not then be logical to assume that the "all things" being reconciled are the same "all things" he just mentioned?

What? When God created all things, as recorded in Genesis, we don't find "thrones, powers, rulers, and authorities" among them!

Furthermore, if these were the "all things" then the word "all" would agree in gender. But "all" is neuter (that's why translators insert "things" after it). But "thrones" is masculine, powers (actually "lordships"), rulers, and authorities are all feminine.

I think when Paul mentions thrones, lordships, rulers, and authorities, he is giving examples of things (or rather, people) who arose out of God's creation, and certainly such authorities must be reconciled to Him. Surely such authorities are PEOPLE! And how will they be reconciled? By force? No. God conquers His enemies by winning their allegiance. He will begin with the authorities, for they have little kingdoms of their own which must be relinquished to become part of God's Kingdom. But not only authorities, but ALL PEOPLE must be reconciled to God by submitting to the King.

I have no problem with your squirrels and dogs being reconciled. After all, when Adam and Eve fell, all of nature fell with them. Animals which had been strictly vegetarian, became carnivorous. That the entire creation will be reconciled can be seen from the following passage:

I figure that the sufferings of the present time are not worthy to be compared to the glory about to be revealed in us. For the creation eagerly awaits the revealing of the sons of God ... because the creation itself will be released from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.

For we know that the whole creation has been travailing together until the present, and not only the creation, but we ourselves, having the firstfruits of the spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for sonship, the redemption of our bodies. Rom 8:18-19,21-23

[Homer]

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:

In your "system" once people die, they are relegated to an eternity to heaven or hell.

Actually I lean a bit toward anihilationist but I'm not sure. Second, from what I understand as his position, I lean toward C S Lewis' view of hell.

So what is the purpose of "the everlasting gospel" (as you would translate it)? In your "system", surely the gospel will no longer needed, since every one is set for eternity in the state in which they find themselves immediately after death. So why is the gospel "everlasting"?

I might just as well ask you the same question since you believe at some point every last soul will be saved out of your purgatory, lake of fire, or whatever. It sounds to me that the persons to whom it will be preached are those here on earth, leastwise according to the verse you only quoted a portion of:

Revelation 14:6 (New King James Version)

6. Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people—

I have searched for any scripture reference to the gospel being preached to the condemned post judgement day but I haven't located anything. Perhaps you can tell me where you found it.

What? When God created all things, as recorded in Genesis, we don't find "thrones, powers, rulers, and authorities" among them!

Please clarify. Paul wrote:

Colossians 1:16 (New King James Version)
16. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Are you saying Paul was mistaken or misunderstood when he wrote the above? I. e. that God had (or has) nothing to do with the creating, (or establishment of) "thrones or dominions or principalities or powers? Sure sounds as though that is what Paul meant.

Furthermore, if these were the "all things" then the word "all" would agree in gender. But "all" is neuter (that's why translators insert "things" after it). But "thrones" is masculine, powers (actually "lordships"), rulers, and authorities are all feminine.

Did Paul error in his Greek or should he have said "some" things?

What about:

Romans 13:1 (New King James Version)

Romans 13
1. Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.

Perhaps this is the "thrones or dominions or principalities or powers" Paul had in mind - that all who rule in His future Kingdom will be those conformed to His will, instead of the often cruel, corrupt, and wicked rulers that exist, and have always seemed to exist.

And how will they be reconciled? By force? No. God conquers His enemies by winning their allegiance. He will begin with the authorities, for they have little kingdoms of their own which must be relinquished to become part of God's Kingdom.

Help me understand what you envision here. Are you saying after judgement day these "little kingdoms" will exist in the lake of fire, or wherever you imagine the lost to be?

You keep insisting that, although they are being severely punished (or your euphemism, corrected) in the lake of fire , or wherever you imagine it to be, they will, completely of their own free-will, repent only after a very long period of suffering. If they retain their complete free-will, what gives you reason to think they will be unable, or hindered from, immediately crying out "Jesus is Lord" and escaping their torment? You insist that God only punishes to correct. Surely you believe the sooner thay can get out the better, and God would not hinder them in any way!

Scriptures would be good if you have any.

God bless, Homer

[Paidion]

So what is the purpose of "the everlasting gospel" (as you would translate it)? In your "system", surely the gospel will no longer needed, since every one is set for eternity in the state in which they find themselves immediately after death. So why is the gospel "everlasting"?

I might just as well ask you the same question since you believe at some point every last soul will be saved out of your purgatory, lake of fire, or whatever. It sounds to me that the persons to whom it will be preached are those here on earth, leastwise according to the verse you only quoted a portion of:

The fact that the "everlasting gospel" will be preached to those on earth does not answer the question. What makes this gospel "everlasting"? Why should it BE "everlasting". Once everyone gets to heaven or hell (whether annihilation or not), why should this gospel continue? Why should it not come to and end, since it will no longer be needed?

I might just as well ask you the same question since you believe at some point every last soul will be saved out of your purgatory, lake of fire, or whatever.

Actually, the question doesn't apply in "my system". For as you know, right from the beginning of our discussions, I have strongly affirmed that "αιωνιος" NEVER means "eternal" or everlasting". So the lasting gospel is required for those who will be in Gehenna after they are raised from the dead. If the gospel were proclaimed only on earth, it would be unneeded in the next life, and so it wouldn't be lasting. But since the correction in Gehenna is lasting, so must the gospel be just as lasting in order to reach the lost. So the concept of "the lasting gospel" fits right into "my system".

I hope to be able to address your other questions at a later time.

[Homer]

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:

For as you know, right from the beginning of our discussions, I have strongly affirmed that "αιωνιος" NEVER means "eternal" or everlasting". So the lasting gospel is required for those who will be in Gehenna after they are raised from the dead.

And herein you are again in error for the gospel is indeed eternal, Revelations 14:6, the euaggelion aionios. Your definition of "gospel" is apparently a narrow one, limited to "good news". Actually the word was used by Paul as a set of historical facts about Christ, then doctrinally with reference to the interpretation of those facts. And facts, being that which has been done, will necessarily always be true, hence the gospel is without end. And aionios in Revelation 14:6 is an adjective to that which by its very nature is unending.

God bless, Homer

[Jill]

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[Paidion]

Actually the word was used by Paul as a set of historical facts about Christ, then doctrinally with reference to the interpretation of those facts.

Where do you get this definition of "gospel"? Can you quote any scripture in which "gospel" is clearly used in this manner? You say that Paul so used it. Please give the references.

[Homer]

Hi Paidion,

I'm pleased to be of assistance re Paul's gospel. Check out 1 Cor. 15:1-3 (historical view), and Romans 2:16, Galatians 1:6-9, 11; 2:2 (doctrinal view).

Perhaps you can respond to my request:

I have searched for any scripture reference to the gospel being preached to the condemned post judgement day but I haven't located anything. Perhaps you can tell me where you found it.

Thanks and God bless, Homer

[Jill]

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