Is There Harm in teaching Universalism?

[_Rick_C]

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[Guest]

Danny,

Quote: "What you really seem to be doing here is beginning with an a priori assumption that your view is correct and CU is incorrect and, therefore CU distorts God's image. It could just as easily be the other way around".

No, that is merely an asssumption on your part!. I do not presume
any view is correct until proven. My priori assumption is that God is always just.
CU presumes God's justice is always remedial. CU presumes
since God is loving, eternal seperation/annihillation would be inconsistant with His loving character as the view interprets it. If such a view of God's character is correct, CU rejects such a God as unworthy of our worship. This imo, is the priori assumption of CU.

I have also made it my point in this debate to qualify which class of sinner
I refer to who will not recieve salvation in Christ. The "wicked" who for a lifetime has rejected God, Christ or the Light all men have recieved since the beginning. Paul covers this in Romans 1-2. As I spoke about this with Paidion, I do not think imo, God will judge someone for what they do not know, but by what they did know. Frankly, I do not burden myself any longer over those who have never heard the Gospel.

I have tried to draw CU's out in explaining their view of "proportional
justice". I hear the same old weak reply; "let the punshment fit the crime".
I know CU's believe it to be grossly unjust of God to punish for all eternity
sins commited temporally. So CU's do have a position on what they view as "proportional justice".
Yet, no one has cared to tackle the question of; "what kind of punshment fits the crime"?

I would like to have a CU explain their view of "proportional justice" in the light of the following Scriptures:

Gen.2:17 Eat from the "wrong tree" you die! Why would a loving God put a tree in the playground that could kill His children? Would you plant such a tree in your yard where your kids play? Mom's out there, would you do such a thing?

Gen.6:1-13,17. God "kills"..men, women, children and some animals.
Starts the whole thing over with Noah and his family and a few pets in a giant boat. ONLY EIGHT PEOPLE WERE REDEEMED.

Gen.18:16-32. Sodom and Gomorrah; NO ONE WAS REDEEMED! NOT EVEN 10! By implication, not even one was righteous! The population included women and children!

I could add considerably to this list all the way into the NT. Please explain
in what sense you would view these judgements of God as "proportional"
from a CU perspective. Since CU's have frequently made the assertion concepts of "eternal punishment" were virtually unknown in the ancient world, I will give you the benefit of the doubt. It should be rather easy then for you to explain from the basis of your assumption, the ancients only knew of this life or age. So my challenge then is for CU's to explain in what way they view God's judgements portrayed here as both remedial
and proportional, not to mention all the while He is being loving in His character.

[Guest]

Please explain in what sense you would view these judgements of God as "proportional" from a CU perspective.

Bob,

This is a fair question. First let me say that none of these examples deal with how God punishes after death which is really the subject of this whole debate. Ultimately this debate is about Hell. The common view is that God punishes the disobedient in the after-life for sins committed in this life....right? In these examples God's punishment occurred in their lifetime resulting in their death - no post-death punishment mentioned. So I'm not sure they apply. Actually, you won't find any examples of after-life punishment in the Old Testament (that I'm aware of).

There is an example of after-life punishment in the New Testament which is the rich man in Luke 16, but I think the concensus opinion is that story is an allegory not a case history. Most will argue that John 5:28-29 is speaking of after-life punishment (but I disagree), and the story of the sheep and the goats (I disagree about that too).

As far as God's punishment that occurs during our lifetime, which is what your examples depict, there is one scripture that comes to mind.

1 John 5:16
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

John points out that there are some sins that lead to the death of the sinner. But there is no mention here about what happens after death. Is there more punishment for this individual in the after-life? That is the question. We see examples frequently where one's sin(s) resulted in God pouring out his wrath resulting in the death of the sinner (e.g., Saddam Hussein).

Todd

[Guest]

Hi Rick,

Btw, I hope you're feeling better. I've been praying for you.

So, if I understand you right, your analogy says:
If a person isn't a universalist they cannot understand universalist language (what universalists say...in English). If we cannot understand doctrines until we convert to the beliefs or religion those doctrines teach; the only beliefs we can understand are those we currently hold to: What nonsense, Danny!

No Rick, you have completely misunderstood the analogy! As I previously stated, Steve Gregg is not a Christian Universalist yet he is able to accurately represent what CUs believe. Your response, that I've quoted here, is a great example of the approach you've taken throughout these discussions regarding CU, which is to misrepresent (whether intentionally or unintentionally) the other person's position and then respond to your misrepresentation.

Let's say, for example, I was raised to believe in universalism and believed it all my life. I would have known, according to universalist doctrine, I would be with God eventually no matter what I did in life. To reiterate what I've said many times on the forum: I could have drank myself to death and been as absolutely sinful as my heart so desired. Universalist doctrine would have told me that my every sin would be "taken care of"----not by the forgiveness the Bible teaches we can receive from God right now (which is ALL the Bible teaches)---but by my going to hell to be punished; after which I would "be saved out of hell" to be with God (as universalism teaches).

I'm not asking you to agree with me. I want to know if you understand that I believe:
Had I believed in univeralism, thinking I could go ahead drink myself to death, I would NOT be "saved" later as universalism teaches. Had I believed the universalist doctrine of "being (so-called) 'saved' after going to hell, some time being brought out of it" (which is patently false, imo) I would have gone there---and NOT come out---as universalism teaches. I would not have had a "second chance after I died" as universalism teaches.

I understand what you believe about CU, as stated in this example, but it reflects a distorted understanding of CU. I've seen (many) people who believe in Eternal Torment take a similar approach: "Jesus is my Lord and Savior and you can't lose your salvation, so I can sin and it's covered by the Blood." I could see your example happening if someone believed in CU but didn't actually know Jesus and simply used CU as a cop out. That type of person would just as likely use "once saved, always saved" as a cop out.

The bottom line is that it's really all about knowing and following Jesus. It's about a living relationship. Anything less than that is a sham.

Perhaps it is the fear factor that you think is missing from the CU equation. I don't believe fear is a good motivator in a relationship, but if you wanted to take that approach you could make the punishment of CU just as nasty as that of eternal torment (thumbscrews and hot pokers are a drag, whether for a million years or eternity!). Personally, I believe it's His kindness that leads to repentance in this life and that perfect love casts out fear.

But I thought you were an Annihilationist. If one is looking for a cop out, Annihilationism seems like the easiest path. "I'll party myself to death and then (*poof*) cease to exist. Sounds good to me! Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die."

I, Rick, DO understand that: The universalist interpretation of 1 Timothy 4:10 "trumps" everything else in the Bible "that might 'appear' as contrary to universalism" (and will soon talk more about this on the TULIP thread).

Here is another misrepresentation. 1 Timothy 4:10 is one among a multitide of scriptures that point to Universal Reconciliation (yes, when taken in context). If one can set aside their Eternal Torment or Annihilationist paradigm (as some are able to) and look at the whole story of the Bible as well as the statements of Jesus, Paul, John, et al from a CU viewpoint, one sees an incredible coherence. I humbly suggest that you're not there yet.

[Guest]

Todd

Quote: " This is a fair question. First let me say that none of these examples deal with how God punishes after death..."

That wasn't my question. I am concerned with CU's perspective on "proportional justice" in this life. CU's obviously object to any form of eternal justice as "less than fair of God". For arguments sake, I'll concede. But, youv'e said nothing about how God has already judged and whether or not in your view, it was "proportional" to the sin(s) commited I've cited from scripture. What does a CU deem as God's fairness when dealing with sin and rebellion?

[_Rick_C]

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[Guest]

Rick,

You wrote (to Danny):

I think I'm following you:
---Annihilationism isn't universalism.
---Universalism is the only view that "omits fear" (good point)!
---Therefore, annihilationism is a cop-out.

You know, I don't think you are following him. In the post he wrote, to which you are responding, Danny said:

Perhaps it is the fear factor that you think is missing from the CU equation. I don't believe fear is a good motivator in a relationship, but if you wanted to take that approach you could make the punishment of CU just as nasty as that of eternal torment (thumbscrews and hot pokers are a drag, whether for a million years or eternity!). Personally, I believe it's His kindness that leads to repentance in this life and that perfect love casts out fear.


In view of this, how can you say that Universalism is a system that "omits fear"? And how can you so thoroughly misrepresent your opponent in the debate and not feel that you are weakening your own case in doing so?

I really think that your meds may be affecting your objective thought processes. I honestly don't say this out of any other motivation than to alert you to the fact that you are no longer connecting with the argument, as you normally do. As a brother, who has as much respect for annihilationism as for universalism (if not more), I do not feel that, in your present interaction, you are giving annihilationism a good advertisement. Perhaps, due to your taking of heavy meds, at the moment, it would be better to give this topic a rest. I really think you will re-read your recent posts in the near future, and will not be pleased to have written them.

[Guest]

I'm a bit concerned also. Rick, I'll leave the discussion with you where it is and let you have the last word.

Bob, I'll reply to you when I get a chance.

[Guest]

Todd

Quote: " This is a fair question. First let me say that none of these examples deal with how God punishes after death..."

That wasn't my question. I am concerned with CU's perspective on "proportional justice" in this life. CU's obviously object to any form of eternal justice as "less than fair of God". For arguments sake, I'll concede. But, youv'e said nothing about how God has already judged and whether or not in your view, it was "proportional" to the sin(s) commited I've cited from scripture. What does a CU deem as God's fairness when dealing with sin and rebellion?

This is still a fair question. I'll try to do a better job of directly answering you, but since I have a little different view than the some of the other proponents of CU maybe they should give you their answer as well.

My response is this. Every sin has its natural consequence and can lead to discord, strife, hatred, loss of family, loss of employment, loss of friends, health issues, anxiety, fear, insecurity, death, etc. Paul explained it in Romans 1:27 when he says that the sinner receives the due penalty for their error, and again a few verses later in Rom 2:9 Paul says there will be tribulation and anguish for them. We reap what we sow. In this way God's punishment for the sinner is proportional to the sin. But the Good News is that God is calling everyone to repent and has provided The Way to salvation and life through faith in Christ.

Todd

[Guest]

Todd,

Quote: "My response is this. Every sin has its natural consequence and can lead to discord, strife, hatred, loss of family, loss of employment, loss of friends, health issues, anxiety, fear, insecurity, death, etc. Paul explained it in Romans 1:27 when he says that the sinner receives the due penalty for their error, and again a few verses later in Rom 2:9 Paul says there will be tribulation and anguish for them. We reap what we sow. In this way God's punishment for the sinner is proportional to the sin. But the Good News is that God is calling everyone to repent and has provided The Way to salvation and life through faith in Christ."

You have not answered my question. Let me further simplify the issue.

The CU position believes it to be "unfair" of God to eternally seperate or annihillate the wicked for temporal sin or for rejecting the Gospel. So you do have some sense of the meaning of "proportional justice". Otherwise the CU assertion God is "unfair", or "unjust" in punishing sin eternally is
a meaningless exercise if you don't hold to *some concept* of what proportional justice is or is not.

I have outlined a few scriptures. In an earlier post, I even listed 20 different offenses from the OT by which a person could recieve the death penalty.
I want to know if these were "proportional" to the CU understanding of God's justice and fairness. If so how and in what way? Remember the ancients didn't have a concept of eternity as Danny asserted. All the life they had was the only life they knew. Was God "fair". In what way was the Flood *remedial* or *restorative*? (NO epic myth cop outs either please)