"Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess the Lord

[Guest]

Todd-

i dont think the confessions will be forced. they will be quite voluntary and sincere, but a tad too late.

TK

TK,

Perhaps, but if that is true then God's mercy has come to an end; however, we are told just the opposite (Lam 3:21-24, quoted earlier).

Todd

[Guest]

TK, why should death be the "cut-off" point?

Do you have any scripture which indicated that this is the case?

[_TK]

hi paidion-

no- i don't have any scripture that hasn't been posited already here or elsewhere where this has been discussed. by the way, i am not convinced that universalism is wrong (or right) at this point. i find the topic very interesting, however, because i never even heard of universalism until fairly recently.

TK

[Guest]

no- i don't have any scripture that hasn't been posited already here or elsewhere where this has been discussed. by the way, i am not convinced that universalism is wrong (or right) at this point. i find the topic very interesting, however, because i never even heard of universalism until fairly recently.


One would think that considering the gravity of a person's eternal destiny that if death were absolutely the cut off point for accepting Christ as Lord that scripture would be crystal clear on this. It is said we face judgement at death and condemnation without doubt but God is merciful and this judgement is a "krisis" or testing not a final conviction IMHO.

[Guest]

I was just wondering what Paul's quoting of Isaiah 45:23...How he 'paraphrased', interpreted & applied it, etc., might have to do with this discussion?

Hi Rick,

Yes, it's very interesting how Paul expanded Isaiah 45:23 in Philippians 2, first by applying it directly to Jesus and second by appending "in heaven and on earth and under the earth" to "every knee will bow". Isaiah was speaking of the living but Paul, by adding "under the earth" is including the dead. Paul seems to be going out of his way to say that everyone who has ever lived will worship Jesus.

He goes on to state, in verse 11 of Philippians 2, "and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord". Compare this with 1 Cor. 12:3 where Paul says that no one can confess that Jesus is Lord apart from the Holy Spirit, and Romans 10:9 where Paul says "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord', and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Paul clearly links the confession of Jesus' Lordship with salvation. There is nothing in Phil. 2 to indicate that these confessions are anything other than freely given worship and praise by everyone who has ever lived.

It's also fascinating to see how closely this aligns with John's vision in Revelation 5:11-13:

"Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang:
"Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!"

Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!"

[Guest]

10. so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11. and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father {Isaiah 45:22(?)-25}.

To the Universalist this and similar statements are sign as assurance that all will ultimately be saved. I think they must be seen, in the context of Jesus' parables, as a warning to act now, before it is too late! Two closely related parables contain this message:

Luke 13:22-30 (NKJV)

22 And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”
And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last.”

And when will this be that there will be those turned away by Jesus? Certainly not in this life! Jesus said:

Rev. 3:20 "Behold I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and dine with him and he with Me.

The universalist must explain when the occasion will be that there are people knocking on the door and refused entrance, if not after judgement day. When will the "door be shut" with no further chance? Never says the Universalist, contra Jesus plain teaching!

Here is another parable with the same message:

Matthew 25:1-13 (NKJV)

1 “Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.
6 “And at midnight a cry was heard: ‘Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet him!’ 7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.
11 “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ 12 But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’
13 “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

Again, a clear warning! The time will come when it will be too late! The door is shut, and not a hint it will open again for any of them!

Luke 14:15-24 (NKJV)

15 Now when one of those who sat at the table with Him heard these things, he said to Him, “Blessed is he who shall eat bread in the kingdom of God!”
16 Then He said to him, “A certain man gave a great supper and invited many, 17 and sent his servant at supper time to say to those who were invited, ‘Come, for all things are now ready.’ 18 But they all with one accord began to make excuses. The first said to him, ‘I have bought a piece of ground, and I must go and see it. I ask you to have me excused.’ 19 And another said, ‘I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I am going to test them. I ask you to have me excused.’ 20 Still another said, ‘I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.’ 21 So that servant came and reported these things to his master. Then the master of the house, being angry, said to his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in here the poor and the maimed and the lame and the blind.’ 22 And the servant said, ‘Master, it is done as you commanded, and still there is room.’ 23 Then the master said to the servant, ‘Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. 24 For I say to you that none of those men who were invited shall taste my supper.’”


The implied threat in these parables should motivate one to take heed, and act decisively now while there is time! Consider the following:

Luke 16:19-31 (NKJV)

19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell[a] from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

Here the impassible "gulf" clearly represents God's irrevocable judgement. The point of the parable is not poor Lazarus, but the six brothers. Its too late for one. The parable is a warning to those like the five remaining brothers who are living a careless, selfish life, heedless of the disaster that awaits when the Son of Man comes in judgement.

Paidion wrote:

TK, why should death be the "cut-off" point?

Do you have any scripture which indicated that this is the case?

See above.

Mort wrote:

I'm continuing to explore the implications. Frankly, they are astounding. Among other things, it means that the Good News actually is good news!

If Universalism is true, as some of you have described it, no news is also good news. Actually, no news is necessary.

[_Rick_C]

Only time for one quick reply tonite....good thread,

1. Thanks for posting those passages. The question remains - how are we to understand them? Traditional teaching says that, for the unjust, they are forced into submission just prior to being cast into the lake of fire. I find that difficult to believe simply because we are told that:

2. ...Every tongue shall give praise to God.

3. ...every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father

4. ...every tongue will swear allegiance.

5. ...They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength'

First, you're welcome.
Second, I'm doing word-studies on selected verses.
And:

1. I would say we are to understand them as the Apostles did. Steve mentions this in his lectures often. Danny has done some exegetical work on this (which I'll reply to later). For now, I won't comment on traditional teaching other than: I'm leaning toward the annihilationist view (something which I never thought possible)....

2. Is praise exactly the same thing as worship? I've not done a word-study on praise yet. This may not be applicable, I don't know: After the Super Bowl the losing coach "praises" the winning coach on his great job, acknowledging his defeat. If this illustration fits; every tongue (person) could praise God...while not being on His team. In fact, they could be on His opposing team! Could the losing coach be said to be "worshiping" the winning coach? Is he their "fan" now? I doubt it: that's treason, lol (I could be off on this example, I admit).....

3. If I'm not mistaken the Greek word for 'confess' literally means: "to be in agreement with" and/or "to say the same thing(s)". That every person who ever lived would be in agreement with God, saying the same thing(s) He says about His Son...would mean that all, whether they were saved (believed) or not, simply will say and agree with God about Who Jesus is; this final agreement between all humanity and God will be to His glory. This has nothing do do with anyone's destiny, per se, imo.

edited in: I just thought of something we all would agree on. Since everyone will ultimately swear that Jesus Christ is the Lord...How does this affect our witnessing? I mean, if they will affirm it later, why not now?

4. The word 'allegiance' is not in the Hebrew (but is an NASB interpretive, so to speak). From what I've found so far, the Hebrew word means "to swear", "to swear (an oath)", "to adjure (confirm by oath)". Again, it seems the idea is that all will come to a full and final acknowledgment and agreement between God and themselves regarding Who He and Jesus are. It's like, all will admit to the truth! Once more, nothing directly said here about anyone's final destiny. It's about that final confirmative oath.

5. I wonder: Who are the "They" of Isaiah 45:24? Danny has already shown that, in no uncertain sense, Isaiah 45:23 has begun: People are, and have been, confessing the Lord Jesus. And Danny -- and Paul --- see a future finalization of this confession and bowing down.

Is 45: 24"They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength '
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame [1].
25"In the LORD all the offspring of Israel
Will be justified and will glory."

[1] cross-reference:
Isaiah 41:11"Behold, all those who are angered at you will be shamed and dishonored; Those who contend with you will be as nothing and will perish."

"They will say..." at some future time from Isaiah's prophecy.
"Men will come to Him"...still future from Isaiah's perspective.
Have these things happened? I submit: Yes, since when Jesus came.
Who has been justified? And what people glory in the Lord?
Who are "They"? Christians! imo, "all the offspring of Israel" (see Ro 9:6ff, Ro 11:11ff)....

Lastly, I was thinking about asking what the universalist position is on:
Will everyone become the offspring of Israel in the future? but.........nevermind.
(that would be treadin' on N.T. Wright's turf!),

Great thread, keep up the good work,
Rick

[_Rick_C]

Okay, one more reply to Danny, Good post, Homer, imo

1. He goes on to state, in verse 11 of Philippians 2, "and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord".

2. Compare this with 1 Cor. 12:3 where Paul says that no one can confess that Jesus is Lord apart from the Holy Spirit,

3. and Romans 10:9 where Paul says "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord', and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

4. Paul clearly links the confession of Jesus' Lordship with salvation.

5. There is nothing in Phil. 2 to indicate that these confessions are anything other than freely given worship and praise by everyone who has ever lived.

1. Yes: The final echatological confession (confirmed by all, sworn by oath). A confession that we now confess "in the last days" (the 'already/not-yet' eschatological aspects of it), etc., Amen!

2. Correct: No one can confess Jesus from the heart but by the Holy Spirit.

3. Agreed: The future destiny of all who currently confess Jesus within their present lifetimes is that they will be saved -- in the future. Paul only says this: There's nothing about a possibility of doing it after death. Paul doesn't say that.

4. Correct: and in this lifetime, once again.

5. I disagree (see my post to Todd).
I feel you're reading Philippians 2 in a "wooden" (too overtly literal) way and bringing foreign ideas into the text. Paul was teaching Christology with a mind toward the Philippians; that they become imitators of Jesus. His quotation (if not something of an amplification) of Isaiah 45 has relevance to what Paul was saying, in the overall context and/or goal of his passage. I see his 'quotation' as a reminder of that future and final Day of judgment and final deliverance for believers (salvation). That the Philippians have already come under the judgment and rulership of God is shown in Paul's ending summary statements in this section:

Philip 2:12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

"So then" (therefore, thus, since) every tongue will confess...the Philippians are to work out their salvation, having confessed the Lord Jesus in this present age. The gist seems to be: "Since everyone will confess Jesus is the Lord, you Philippians just make sure you keep doing it till He comes. Jesus will be Lord whether you work out your salvation or not." (Paul seems to use Isaiah 45 as both a "confessional (statement)" and a "warning" here), imo.

If Paul intended to teach universalism in this chapter; I don't see it, anyway. To: Philippians. Re: God made Jesus Lord, all will swear it is true at the Last Day, since you say He is Lord -- y'all LIVE IT!!!

I guess I'm a 'universalist' in only one sense: On Judgment Day all will agree -- by confirming it in an oath -- that Jesus is Lord to God's glory, whether they are His friends or His foes. Picture: Adolf Hitler saying that, swearing it is true...think about it.

And just how awesome is our present confession?...Wow....with fear and trembling. Jesus IS LORD. I need God, brothers! I need to work with and for Him, Amen.

It's also fascinating to see how closely this aligns with John's vision in Revelation 5:11-13

I'll look into that.......later,

I (desperately) need a nap,
God bless you,
Rick

P.S. I've never heard Steve's (actual) Isaiah lectures and am trying to locate chapter 45 via downloads...he prolly has some great stuff on it!

[_TK]

Homer wrote:

Actually, no news is necessary.

this succinctly states my main problem with universalism (that i have raised before)-- and in my mind this has never been adequately responded to. unfortunately, for me at least, the idea that the only "benefit" to accepting the good news we will have a better "this life" doesnt square with the gospel message.

and like paidion said earlier, we have no way on knowing how long a period of "correction" might take in the LOF (if that view is correct). i suspect that most people, who are incredibly averse to discomfort of any kind, will stand corrected in about .2 seconds. this makes all of the warnings of jesus and the apostles ring rather hollow.

TK

[Guest]

Hi Steve7150,

Quote: "You're assuming that God stated eternal torment or separation yet we won't accept it. I don't see the bible saying that at all, i see this belief as a fear tactic originally coming out from the RCC to control the flock".

.."I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body,
and after that have no more that they can do. But I will WARN YOU WHOM TO FEAR, FEAR THE ONE WHO AFTER HAS KILLED HAS AUTHORITY TO CAST INTO HELL; YES I TELL YOU FEAR HIM"..

I guess Jesus was just being a good Catholic?