Questions for the universalist

[Paidion]

Some Scriptures Concerning the Reconciliation of All Things to God


John 12:32
… I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

When Jesus was died on the cross, He began to draw people to Himself. With the words to John, “Behold your mother”, and to Mary, “Behold your son”, He began to establish the Family of God. This continued after His resurrection when there were 120 in that Family. It further developed on that special Pentecost, where many were added to the Family daily. But He has not yet drawn ALL people to Himself, as He said He would do in the passage above.

Colossians 1:19,20
For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Ephesians 1:9,10
For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the secret of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Romans 5:18
Then as one man’s trespass [Adam’s] led to condemnation for all people, so one man’s act of righteousness [Christ’s] leads to acquittal and life for all people.
[See RSV, NRSV, ESV, NIV]

Philippians 2:9-11
Therefore God has highly exalted him [Christ] and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Some say, “Yes, every knee shall bow when it has been struck from behind with a 2X4”. True a forced bowing is possible. But can confession of Christ as Lord be forced?

Who are those under the earth who will bow to Jesus? Does it refer to those who will be in Gehenna?

I Timothy 4:10
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

God is the Saviour of those who believe in a special way. They are being saved from sin now, and so are justified, and will not have to undergo Gehenna. But Paul says here that God is the Savior of ALL people. Those who are not being saved now and will have to be corrected in Gehenna, and will have to repent and submit. There is no other way to be saved, and there is no name other than that of Jesus by which anyone can be saved.

Revelation 5:12-13
And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, "To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might into the ages of ages.

Surely this kind of praise is voluntary and could not be forced. Notice that even those under the earth will praise God and the Lamb. Who will they be? Those who will be in the Lake of Fire? All demons? Even Satan himself?

Romans 11:32
For God has consigned all people to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.

Philippians 3:20,21
But our commonwealth is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power which enables him even to subject all things to himself.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. "For God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "All things are put in subjection under him," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one.

Doesn't this passage clearly state that every one and every thing will, at some point, become subject to Christ?

Some will object that “all” does not always mean “all” in the Bible. That is true. But from that we cannot conclude that it doesn’t mean “all” in these passages.

When “all” is used for emphasis it is plain. For example:

Matthew 8:34 And behold, all the city came out to meet Jesus; and when they saw him, they begged him to leave their neighborhood.

We talk this way today. George asks, Who was at the fair? Jim replies, Everybody was there!”. George doesn’t conclude that everyone in the world was at the fair. It’s an extreme exaggeration for emphasis. But there is no indication that this kind of thing is being done in the reconciliation scriptures.

[RV]

Those are interesting verses no doubt.

In light of this:

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? ~ 1 Cor. 6:2

If this is to be taken plain and literal, which I'm not sure why it wouldn't.

Having received grace and mercy from the Lord. I'm just not sure I'd condem anyone to hell.

At this point, I really don't know. I don't want to throw out the same old tired arguments. To be honest, I'm not even sure how to argue this. I've read some arguments against what you believe, but those arguments don't even address how the universalist approach this subject for the most part.

If anyone knows more (which many do), feel free to step in. I'll chime in if something comes to mind.

I just don't know Paidion. You present some good scriptures. I can think of others to post, but those have been addressed many times.

The biggest question mark in my mind right now is 1 Cor. 6:2.

I mean the Lord says over and over that we're to forgive each others sins. I just don't see being forgiven and not forgiving and the Lord being OK with that.

I'm stumped!

[Todd]

Matt 5:43-45a
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven;

Does this passage make you think that God will condemn his enemies to unending punishment? I doesn't to me. Would God ask us to be this merciful and not do the same? Certainly not!

Todd

[RV]

Matt 5:43-45a
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven;

Does this passage make you think that God will condemn his enemies to unending punishment? I doesn't to me. Would God ask us to be this merciful and not do the same? Certainly not!

GREAT question Todd. I just don't have an answer.

[RV]

I think I've got a question.

If everyone will go to heaven, why would God send his son to die?

Why statements like this:

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life (John 3:15)

Why would Jesus make statements like this? If you don't believe in Him, according to some, you're not going to perish.

I mean before Jesus died, weren't there those who were righteous?

And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. (Matt 17:3)

So why would God send his son?

It doesn't seem right that all before him had to spend time in gehenna. If all before him didn't spend time in gehenna (which it appears Moses and Elijah had a break of some sort), where did they go?

Sorry... more than one question.

[Homer]

RV,

Paidion has provided you with several proof-texts that appear to support his position. Most of them quotes of Paul. But what do they mean? Let's look at one example (I need to get up and get busy with other things):

Colossians 1:19,20
For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

Now let's look at the broader context:

Colossians 1:15-23 (NIV)

15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16.For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20. and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
21. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22. But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23. if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Paul informs us in v.16 that all things were created by Him. And what are the "all things" Paul has in mind? Thrones, powers, rulers, and authorities! Would it not then be logical to assume that the "all things" being reconciled are the same "all things" he just mentioned? That Paul is referring to the restoration of the "world system" back to its original state as God created it? Back to Eden, where heaven and earth are one?

Where do we find in the passage that Paul is referring to all individual people? If "all things" is taken literally, then why not all cats and dogs and horses and insects, etc? We see this as absurd because we recognize that's not what Paul had in mind. Where do we get the idea that Paul's "all things" means only all individuals who ever existed, and nothing else, rather than the various social/governing systems he mentions in the text?

And then Paul goes on to say the gospel had, at that time, been proclaimed to every creature. A bit of hyperbole, or just Paul's way of speaking, as in "all things"? And Paul states how this gospel he preached applies individually: "Faithful till death and you will receive a crown of (eternal) life".

Paidion's list is a fine example of proof-texting.

[Todd]

Why statements like this:

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life (John 3:15)

Why would Jesus make statements like this? If you don't believe in Him, according to some, you're not going to perish.

RV,

What does perish mean? It is translated from the greek word apollumi which is sometimes translated destroy, lost, perish. The state of someone who is apollumi (perished or lost), such as the prodigal son, is one in which his life is ruined due to bad choices. The prodigal son had chosen self-indulgence instead of responsibility and loyalty to his father and was said to be apollumi (lost, perished, destroyed). He had not died and gone to hell; no, he was still alive and later repented.

So Christ was saying, in the passage you quoted (John 3:15), that those who believe and follow Him will not ruin their lives through selfishness and carnal desires but instead will enjoy the abundant life that comes from knowing God and serving and loving others (as Christ did). As I see it, this passage is about this life, not the afterlife.

John 10:10b
I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

Todd

[RV]

Hi Homer,

Thanks... you may have missed this response to Paidion:

Paidion wrote:
You seem to be saying that Paul is telling the Colossians that the condition for reconciliation is continuing in the faith. Would you say then, that anyone who has a major slip up (while in this life) is doomed? That he cannot repent and be restored?

I see your point here; I suppose he could mean this:

Paidion wrote:
Or is he saying that He will present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach if you continue in the faith?

Which also can be said this way: If you don't continue in the faith he won't present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach.

But, that still doesn't mean this:

Paidion wrote:
That is correct. I go much further than that. Even if you have never been in the faith, you will be reconciled!

You haven't come to that belief based on the passage now in discussion.

Nor this:

Paidion wrote:
But please don't misunderstand me. In no way am I suggesting that everyone will be automatically reconciled to God. Each person must repent (have a change of mind and heart) and submit to the Lordship of Christ, just as you and I have done. If they refuse, they will remain in Gehenna, that place or condition in which the severe mercy of God must be endured ---- until they do repent. Sooner or later they will.

I'm just trying to find out where you come up with:

Paidion wrote:
Even if you have never been in the faith, you will be reconciled

And where do you get this:
Paidion wrote:
But please don't misunderstand me. In no way am I suggesting that everyone will be automatically reconciled to God. Each person must repent (have a change of mind and heart) and submit to the Lordship of Christ, just as you and I have done. If they refuse, they will remain in Gehenna, that place or condition in which the severe mercy of God must be endured ---- until they do repent. Sooner or later they will.

I may be missing something... but it seems you'd have to read a lot into the text to draw Paidion's conclusions on it.

[RV]

RV,

What does perish mean? It is translated from the greek word apollumi which is sometimes translated destroy, lost, perish. The state of someone who is apollumi (perished or lost), such as the prodigal son, is one in which his life is ruined due to bad choices. The prodigal son had chosen self-indulgence instead of responsibility and loyalty to his father and was said to be apollumi (lost, perished, destroyed). He had not died and gone to hell; no, he was still alive and later repented.

So Christ was saying, in the passage you quoted (John 3:15), that those who believe and follow Him will not ruin their lives through selfishness and carnal desires but instead will enjoy the abundant life that comes from knowing God and serving and loving others (as Christ did). As I see it, this passage is about this life, not the afterlife.

John 10:10b
I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

Hi Todd,

Thanks, that makes sense but I'm not sure the context of the passage allows for that. Not only that, but "perish" is used many other times to actually mean: destroy, lost, perish.

Do those not count?

[Todd]

Thanks, that makes sense but I'm not sure the context of the passage allows for that. Not only that, but "perish" is used many other times to actually mean: destroy, lost, perish.

Do those not count?

Yes, they count, but they don't mean never-ending punishment; that is my point. To me, the prodigal son is a practical example of the true meaning of apollumi. In the new testament, when apollumi is used as a description for the soul of man, it describes a life in tatters - a life ruined as a result of bad choices, self-indulgence, and carnal-mindedness. But as with the prodigal son there is still hope if one repents even though he has been declared apollumi.

Todd