Universalism - any good books?

[Guest]

I think we can all agree that being in perfect harmony with God Himself would be worth any trouble. The apostles probably lived a much harder life than Judas did. Judas had to deal with his emotions - everyone goes through that trouble in this life. Yet Jesus doesn't say it would be good for us to have never existed. The apostles were continually ridiculed, tortured, and for most, died a horrible death and yet Jesus didn't say to them what he did about Judas. Jesus said the apostles would be blessed, but in what sense? Not in this life, but in the next - Matt. 5:11-12 "Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great". Jesus was forsaken by His own Father and yet He never said, "it would be good for me never to have existed", because ultimately He would be seated with His Father in glory.

I don't believe Jesus was referring to this life when He made that comment about Judas. Additionally, any trouble would be dwarfed compared to spending eternity with God, even if it is hell and yet Jesus still makes that statement. That is a pretty bold statement from God Himself, who knows the future of every human - it would be good for you never to have existed.

I also don’t understand how some of you guys are using Luke 3:16 in order to say that the lake of fire is where people are baptized with fire. A believer never goes to hell, so I guess he doesn’t get baptized with fire? If being baptized with fire includes weeping and gnashing of the teeth, I still have yet to be baptized.

Benzoic,

There could be an ongoing process of utter destruction that never ends.

Do you not think that this statement is contradictory? Utter destruction that never ends? How could it be "utterly" destroyed then? How could something be said to even be "destroyed" if it never in fact suffers destruction? (In case you can't tell, I lean toward annhilationism).

God bless,

That’s a good point, but as I pointed out earlier, there is a verse in matt. 25:46 that states unbelievers will be degraded eternally. Which would lead me to believe that the ‘utter destruction’ does not mean inexistence. Also, when we destroy something like a building, it doesn’t cease to exist; everything which made up the building is now in many pieces. And isn’t it interesting that Jesus stated that those who perish will be cut into pieces Mat. 24:51, Luke 12:46? What happens to something when it is broken into pieces? It is degraded, it doesn’t have the same stature, it is incapable of performing and receiving whatever it use to. I think Jesus was using an analogy in Mat. 24:51 and Luke 12:46 to point out that unbelievers will be destroyed as affirmed in John 3:16.

[Guest]

Steve7150 wrote:

Jesus will be our judge and tormenting someone forever is simply contrary to his character and contrary to how he asks his followers to be. We are supposed to love our enemies while conforming ourselves to be like Christ, yet we are told that Christ will torment his enemy forever?

If it is contrary to his character for God to endlessly punish, how does it comport with his imagined character to punish for a long, long time (perhaps millions of years as Paidion postulates)? Would not the position necessarily be as Todd advocates?

Todd wrote:

I personally believe that God punishes no one after they have died, but that all His punishments upon the wicked and disobedient happen during their lifetime.

And if this is true, how can God allow the horrible, protracted suffering and cruelty in this life?

When a belief regarding the fate of the lost is built upon the material available to the universalist, the building has a foundation of sand, for there is necessarily a considerable amount of speculation, wishful thinking, and dubious exposition of scripture, in the system. (And yes, I wish it to be true, but can not believe it is.)

There is an interesting quote of a Quaker in the debate I provided a link to. After hearing a universalist speak, the universalist offered to speak again. The Quaker said "If what you say is true, we have no need to hear you, and if it is false, we do not want to hear you".

[Guest]

If it is contrary to his character for God to endlessly punish, how does it comport with his imagined character to punish for a long, long time (perhaps millions of years as Paidion postulates)? Would not the position necessarily be as Todd advocates?


Paidion gets "millions of years" by literally interpreting the phrase "ages upon ages" as thousands X thousands. I think it just means that sinners may be in the LOF a long time , but the length of time obviously is not disclosed.
Todd's position IMO lacks justice since Paul said "we reap what we sow" and many other statements in the bible agree with this. So Christ's character is "justice,mercy and faithfulness." IMO Todd's view lacks justice and your view Homer lacks mercy.

[Guest]

IMO ... your view Homer lacks mercy.

God has been merciful to every human prior to their death. God constantly waits as people live in their sin to repent, and all the while His common grace is shed abroad. God allows them to enjoy the wonderful creation He has made while unbelievers wholeheartedly reject Him. This is where God's grace and mercy can be found for the unbeliever. Everyone was given an equal opportunity to respond, even to those who will never hear the gospel. God will provide an opportunity for every seeking heart to find truth if they want it. God is merciful towards a person for a lifetime.

[Guest]

I also don’t understand how some of you guys are using Luke 3:16 in order to say that the lake of fire is where people are baptized with fire. A believer never goes to hell, so I guess he doesn’t get baptized with fire? If being baptized with fire includes weeping and gnashing of the teeth, I still have yet to be baptized.

Benzoic,

Actually, I am the only one that has related the "Baptism of Fire" with the "Lake of Fire." Let's look at the verse.

Luke 3:16-17
16 John answered, saying to all, “I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 17 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather the wheat into His barn; but the chaff He will burn with unquenchable fire.”

In this context, the wheat (believers) are gathered into the barn, but the chaff (wicked) are burned with unquenchable fire. These are metaphors. Christ baptizes with both the Holy Spirit and Fire. The Holy Spirit brings us guidance and blessing (if we follow); the Fire brings us guilt, shame, and anxiety.

John 16:8
When he [the Holy Spirit] comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:

This scripture is talking about the same thing IMO. The conviction of the Holy Spirit is meant to bring us to repentance. It is called a Baptism of Fire because it covers the entire world calling all men unto repentance.

Todd

[Guest]

Todd wrote:

I personally believe that God punishes no one after they have died, but that all His punishments upon the wicked and disobedient happen during their lifetime.

And if this is true, how can God allow the horrible, protracted suffering and cruelty in this life?

Homer,

You bring up a very sober point. If what I say is true - that God punishes unbelievers and blesses followers during our lifetime - how is it that so many believers suffer in this life. Many do indeed suffer with health issues, family problems, being laid-off at work, persecution, etc. However, all of these issues have nothing to do with our relationship with God. Throughout all of our suffering we can enjoy peace with God and find strength to help in time of need. Isn't this similar to the story of Job? He suffered greatly, but still found comfort in knowing that he was in right-standing with God.

The blessings that I refer to are those described as spiritual blessings; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self-control, etc. These blessings can be a part of our life while living through times of suffering and loss. This is why becoming a Christian is so important even if you believe in Universalism, so that you can live your life in peace with God and man. The alternative is to suffer the guilt, shame, and anxiety brought on through the conviction of the Holy Spirit calling us to repentance. Heaven forbid that anyone should live out their life as a tormented soul because of their own self-seeking ways.

Todd

[Guest]

Paidion and Steve7150 take a more standard Universalist approach which includes punishment in hell after death for a finite period of time.

Our appoach, Todd, is anything but "standard Universalist".

Standard Universalism teaches that everyone automatically goes to heaven at death and no one goes to hell, since there is no hell. Consider the "standard" Universalist-Unitarian Church. It is so liberal, that an atheist can join it. This is the reason I do not accept the "Universalist" label. Because I believe in the reconciliation of all people to God, and if people insist on labelling me, I prefer to be called a "Reconciliationist".

Concerning the "baptism of fire", I believe that it is the purifying fire of God's judgment. He shows tough love to all, until they are conformed to the image of Christ. This corrective fire included both disciples and non-disciples. In my previous post, I quoted the words of Jesus to show how three classes of disciples who failed to meet the test, are to be punished.

Here are a couple of statements of Christ which make reference to the "baptism with fire":

"I came to cast fire upon the earth; and would that it were already kindled! I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how I am constrained until it is accomplished!" Luke 12:49-50

And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. For everyone will be salted with fire. Mark 9:47-49

[Guest]

Consider the "standard" Universalist-Unitarian Church. It is so liberal, that an atheist can join it. This is the reason I do not accept the "Universalist" label.

They might as well be able to join if your views are correct, because everyone's ultimately part of the Church in your belief.

[Guest]

They might as well be able to join if your views are correct, because everyone's ultimately part of the Church in your belief.

Everyone "is ultimately..."? Do you mean "shall be ultimately"?

In any case, what do you mean by "the church"? Do you think that anyone who ultimately resides with Christ forever is part of the church?
Would this include those who die in infancy? Would foetuses and zygotes be part of "the church"? How about the extremely retarded who may be incapable of being a disciple of Christ? And while we're at it, how about the millions who have never heard of Christ and have had no opportunity to become disiples?

Jesus said, "Narrow is the road that leads to life and few there be that find it." I have always considered those few, "the little flock", as the church of Christ. That is not to say that the little flock are the only ones to be with Christ eternally.

[Guest]

Paidion and Steve7150 take a more standard Universalist approach which includes punishment in hell after death for a finite period of time.

Our appoach, Todd, is anything but "standard Universalist".

Standard Universalism teaches that everyone automatically goes to heaven at death and no one goes to hell, since there is no hell. Consider the "standard" Universalist-Unitarian Church. It is so liberal, that an atheist can join it. This is the reason I do not accept the "Universalist" label. Because I believe in the reconciliation of all people to God, and if people insist on labelling me, I prefer to be called a "Reconciliationist".

Paidion,

I stand corrected. I should have said, standard "Christian Universalist" which is quite different from the Unitarian Universalist. Your views are similar to those I have read about who gladly call themselves "Christian Universalist."

Todd